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Buddhism & CFS

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by starryeyes, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Whooping laughter! Scare the dog laughter!

    Thanks for that!

    You create a fine buoyancy ~ it is a wonderful thing!

    wonderful!
  2. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Whooping laughter! Scare the dog laughter!

    Thanks for that!

    You create a fine buoyancy ~ it is a wonderful thing!

    wonderful!
  3. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    a compassionate act to alleviate suffering

    From George:
    From Koan:
    Thank you. You are both dears.

    There has been lots of suffering around this. Then sometimes, the clouds part, and it all becomes very clear then no struggle, no confusion. Then the clouds roll in again . . .

    My parents not only taught me doctrine that was life-smothering, they also led me to know that I could access a spiritual realm that was eternal and life-giving. This connection to life, to love, to the non-material world was a sometimes dim light that never got completely snuffed out throughout all my confusion and distress.

    What made it so excruciatingly, almost disastrously, difficult, was that they also taught me that I could not trust my self, my feelings, my intuition. Especially as a woman you know, that Eve thing.

    I will continue to grapple with the theologies of Christianity and Buddhism and other spiritual paths, but I love it when it all drops below my conscious thought and I know, I just know. Me or not me. This way or that way. Life or death.

    A scripture from the Hebrew Bible, probably out of context, that has helped me. "I have set before you life and death . . . therefore choose life." It becomes simple. I choose life. However and whatever that may mean, where is the life? I choose that.

    (Except when it's not. Sometimes it's me and not me, this way and that way, life and death. That might better suit Jung's Red Book thread, though.)

    I realize I'm off topic here and I'm very tempted to delete this post. This thread is called Buddhism and CFS. I'm not well versed in Buddhism (as you can see), though I am well versed in CFS. What has helped me the most in trying to live with this illness is my connection to some other non-material realm. I'm hoping this discussion is relevant to others here. If not, please continue on.
  4. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
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    Santa Rosa, CA
    a compassionate act to alleviate suffering

    From George:
    From Koan:
    Thank you. You are both dears.

    There has been lots of suffering around this. Then sometimes, the clouds part, and it all becomes very clear then no struggle, no confusion. Then the clouds roll in again . . .

    My parents not only taught me doctrine that was life-smothering, they also led me to know that I could access a spiritual realm that was eternal and life-giving. This connection to life, to love, to the non-material world was a sometimes dim light that never got completely snuffed out throughout all my confusion and distress.

    What made it so excruciatingly, almost disastrously, difficult, was that they also taught me that I could not trust my self, my feelings, my intuition. Especially as a woman you know, that Eve thing.

    I will continue to grapple with the theologies of Christianity and Buddhism and other spiritual paths, but I love it when it all drops below my conscious thought and I know, I just know. Me or not me. This way or that way. Life or death.

    A scripture from the Hebrew Bible, probably out of context, that has helped me. "I have set before you life and death . . . therefore choose life." It becomes simple. I choose life. However and whatever that may mean, where is the life? I choose that.

    (Except when it's not. Sometimes it's me and not me, this way and that way, life and death. That might better suit Jung's Red Book thread, though.)

    I realize I'm off topic here and I'm very tempted to delete this post. This thread is called Buddhism and CFS. I'm not well versed in Buddhism (as you can see), though I am well versed in CFS. What has helped me the most in trying to live with this illness is my connection to some other non-material realm. I'm hoping this discussion is relevant to others here. If not, please continue on.
  5. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    Santa Rosa, CA
    now I'm smiling

    Wow. It's amazing what happens when I take a very long time to write a post. I'm being WAY too serious, and you guys are falling on the floor laughing! So I'll join you.
    :D :D :D

    Now I'm smiling, too. :)
  6. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
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    Santa Rosa, CA
    now I'm smiling

    Wow. It's amazing what happens when I take a very long time to write a post. I'm being WAY too serious, and you guys are falling on the floor laughing! So I'll join you.
    :D :D :D

    Now I'm smiling, too. :)
  7. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Gracenote,

    I suspect that Jesus was the first BuJew. Where was he during those missing years, anyway? I think his teachings seem so much like a mix of Judaism and Buddhism. I'm so sorry that you, and many others, did not seem to get the best of him. It does everyone a real disservice. Where can he be found today in a way that does him justice. I would like more of him.

    It's hard for me to know when I'm not talking about Buddism. I feel as though, if I'm talking, I'm talking about Buddhism. So, everywhere I talk I'm OT.

    Please don't erase! More Gracenote, please!

    I was raised without religion; not casually, mind you, but rabidly. My mother was raised Roman Catholic and it traumatized her and as an adult she became enamored of the French Existentialists of the 1950s. She shared with me her copies of Camus when I was 8. :eek: My poor mother!

    My mother used to say, "You should get down on your knees and thank me for not raising you with religion!" I don't think she was struck by the irony of the posture she advised me to adopt but I was. It was only much, much later that I came to really appreciate the freedom she had given me to find, for myself, my way through the issues of faith without obstacle.

    I was very fortunate.

    We will all work our way through this together, shall we? We will come, together, to understandings which will renew and increase the peace we feel and the love we give.

    If a thread about Buddhism and CFS cannot contain that activity... well, it can. I feel fairly confident that even George and Dr Yes would agree :D

    Peace to you, dear Gracenote,
    k
  8. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Gracenote,

    I suspect that Jesus was the first BuJew. Where was he during those missing years, anyway? I think his teachings seem so much like a mix of Judaism and Buddhism. I'm so sorry that you, and many others, did not seem to get the best of him. It does everyone a real disservice. Where can he be found today in a way that does him justice. I would like more of him.

    It's hard for me to know when I'm not talking about Buddism. I feel as though, if I'm talking, I'm talking about Buddhism. So, everywhere I talk I'm OT.

    Please don't erase! More Gracenote, please!

    I was raised without religion; not casually, mind you, but rabidly. My mother was raised Roman Catholic and it traumatized her and as an adult she became enamored of the French Existentialists of the 1950s. She shared with me her copies of Camus when I was 8. :eek: My poor mother!

    My mother used to say, "You should get down on your knees and thank me for not raising you with religion!" I don't think she was struck by the irony of the posture she advised me to adopt but I was. It was only much, much later that I came to really appreciate the freedom she had given me to find, for myself, my way through the issues of faith without obstacle.

    I was very fortunate.

    We will all work our way through this together, shall we? We will come, together, to understandings which will renew and increase the peace we feel and the love we give.

    If a thread about Buddhism and CFS cannot contain that activity... well, it can. I feel fairly confident that even George and Dr Yes would agree :D

    Peace to you, dear Gracenote,
    k
  9. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Yay! Dr Yes is very funny!

    Smiling happens, not smiling happens (as opposed to "no smiling" :p ), it's all good!

    :D
  10. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    Yay! Dr Yes is very funny!

    Smiling happens, not smiling happens (as opposed to "no smiling" :p ), it's all good!

    :D
  11. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

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    Don't delete your post, Gracenote! It was beautiful, and fits perfectly with the thread. I'm not a Buddhist either, just very interested in it, like you. I think the original intent of this thread was (and overall still is) to discuss how we each have sought to reconcile our personal philosophies of mind/spirituality/ life with the conflicts created by ME/CFS. Buddhism just happens to be a philosophy that deals very explicitly with suffering, and I guess it's been useful to many people in dealing with this disease. But there are many, many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity, so it seems logical that this thread should accomodate both, esp. in comparison of their teachings relevant to each of our situations.

    You bring up more deep points than I can even address at the moment! (REALLY wiped) One thing you said: "My parents not only taught me doctrine that was life-smothering, they also led me to know that I could access a spiritual realm that was eternal and life-giving. This connection to life, to love, to the non-material world was a sometimes dim light that never got completely snuffed out throughout all my confusion and distress."
    ..got me to realize (for like the millionth time) that I really don't know much about the philosophy of Christianity, or the deep beliefs of different sects within it. I mean, I'm familiar with the Old and New Testaments but the only thing I know beyond that about modern day Christianity is what I hear from the occasionally broadcast sermon. All I know about 'fundamentalism' is from rhetoric on TV, which I've always figured represents a particularly dogmatic (if powerful) extremist fringe. I'd be really interested to learn more about it than THAT.

    "What made it so excruciatingly, almost disastrously, difficult, was that they also taught me that I could not trust my self, my feelings, my intuition. Especially as a woman — you know, that Eve thing." One of the hardest things to accept about most Indian religions/philosophies is they deny that the 'ego', even the personality, is "real"... that our true essence (soul, whatever) is something other than what we are used to calling "ourself", and that it perishes with the rest of the body at death. (There has always been some difference of opinion on the extent of this, but overall I think this is a pretty accurate generalization). So, in a very real way, Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism all teach that you cannot trust yourself (unless you are in tune with the "true" self) or your feelings. This led to quite a bit of existential angst for me, too! The one comforting aspect I found (but not all would find!) was that at least the "true self" can be trusted, as internally we are identical to the Ultimate, not its subjects...thus we can trust our intuition IF our minds are disciplined, i.e. we can understand and control our emotions.

    I've read in a few places about the issue of the "Fall from the Garden" in Biblical religions, and how that shaped the cultures that followed them, particularly in regards to the status of women. If you regard Nature as unholy, or shameful, or "fallen", then you tend to regard women the same way, since they tend to be symbolic of the human connection to Nature in most cultures. But Biblical religions are not unique in this; many Indian religious philosophers regarded much of the natural world as either bestial or illusory, and therefore women were again seen as ties to the material (illusory) world, or to our more animalistic components. This view waxed and waned over time, depending on the culture in question...In some, women could be revered as saints or gurus too, while in others (esp. earlier ones) women were not even considered capable of attaining enlightenment, due to their "biological function" as "Mother Earth", which grounded them to the material dimension. The common ingredient in most of these misogynistic Biblical and Indian religions is a patriarchal society and a disgust with the natural world...Even some early Buddhists (very differently from Zen Buddhists, as I understand it) derided the body as "bad" or "sinful", as in the "Fire Sermon" (which purports to be by the Buddha himself but is almost certainly not). Fortunately, there have always been more liberating strains of all of these religions and philosophies that do not hold women in a lower "spiritual plane".

    Wow have I been rambling on without making a point! Sorry, gracenote.. and I didn't even get to the last thing you brought up, which is really deep! Oh well. That may be the worst thing, for me...not being able to pursue my "soul's calling" because I cant even think straight, let alone deeply, due to ME/CFS. I guess dealing with that sort of thing is mainly what this thread was started for. So...don't delete your post!


    btw gracenote, earlier were you were asking about the story of Buddha's life? If so, the version I remember most is Edwin Arnold's poem "The Light of Asia", which introduced Buddhism to colonial Europe way back when. But to be honest I'd rather have Koan tell it in her own wonderful way!:D
  12. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

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    Don't delete your post, Gracenote! It was beautiful, and fits perfectly with the thread. I'm not a Buddhist either, just very interested in it, like you. I think the original intent of this thread was (and overall still is) to discuss how we each have sought to reconcile our personal philosophies of mind/spirituality/ life with the conflicts created by ME/CFS. Buddhism just happens to be a philosophy that deals very explicitly with suffering, and I guess it's been useful to many people in dealing with this disease. But there are many, many similarities between Buddhism and Christianity, so it seems logical that this thread should accomodate both, esp. in comparison of their teachings relevant to each of our situations.

    You bring up more deep points than I can even address at the moment! (REALLY wiped) One thing you said: "My parents not only taught me doctrine that was life-smothering, they also led me to know that I could access a spiritual realm that was eternal and life-giving. This connection to life, to love, to the non-material world was a sometimes dim light that never got completely snuffed out throughout all my confusion and distress."
    ..got me to realize (for like the millionth time) that I really don't know much about the philosophy of Christianity, or the deep beliefs of different sects within it. I mean, I'm familiar with the Old and New Testaments but the only thing I know beyond that about modern day Christianity is what I hear from the occasionally broadcast sermon. All I know about 'fundamentalism' is from rhetoric on TV, which I've always figured represents a particularly dogmatic (if powerful) extremist fringe. I'd be really interested to learn more about it than THAT.

    "What made it so excruciatingly, almost disastrously, difficult, was that they also taught me that I could not trust my self, my feelings, my intuition. Especially as a woman — you know, that Eve thing." One of the hardest things to accept about most Indian religions/philosophies is they deny that the 'ego', even the personality, is "real"... that our true essence (soul, whatever) is something other than what we are used to calling "ourself", and that it perishes with the rest of the body at death. (There has always been some difference of opinion on the extent of this, but overall I think this is a pretty accurate generalization). So, in a very real way, Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism all teach that you cannot trust yourself (unless you are in tune with the "true" self) or your feelings. This led to quite a bit of existential angst for me, too! The one comforting aspect I found (but not all would find!) was that at least the "true self" can be trusted, as internally we are identical to the Ultimate, not its subjects...thus we can trust our intuition IF our minds are disciplined, i.e. we can understand and control our emotions.

    I've read in a few places about the issue of the "Fall from the Garden" in Biblical religions, and how that shaped the cultures that followed them, particularly in regards to the status of women. If you regard Nature as unholy, or shameful, or "fallen", then you tend to regard women the same way, since they tend to be symbolic of the human connection to Nature in most cultures. But Biblical religions are not unique in this; many Indian religious philosophers regarded much of the natural world as either bestial or illusory, and therefore women were again seen as ties to the material (illusory) world, or to our more animalistic components. This view waxed and waned over time, depending on the culture in question...In some, women could be revered as saints or gurus too, while in others (esp. earlier ones) women were not even considered capable of attaining enlightenment, due to their "biological function" as "Mother Earth", which grounded them to the material dimension. The common ingredient in most of these misogynistic Biblical and Indian religions is a patriarchal society and a disgust with the natural world...Even some early Buddhists (very differently from Zen Buddhists, as I understand it) derided the body as "bad" or "sinful", as in the "Fire Sermon" (which purports to be by the Buddha himself but is almost certainly not). Fortunately, there have always been more liberating strains of all of these religions and philosophies that do not hold women in a lower "spiritual plane".

    Wow have I been rambling on without making a point! Sorry, gracenote.. and I didn't even get to the last thing you brought up, which is really deep! Oh well. That may be the worst thing, for me...not being able to pursue my "soul's calling" because I cant even think straight, let alone deeply, due to ME/CFS. I guess dealing with that sort of thing is mainly what this thread was started for. So...don't delete your post!

    btw gracenote, earlier were you were asking about the story of Buddha's life? If so, the version I remember most is Edwin Arnold's poem "The Light of Asia", which introduced Buddhism to colonial Europe way back when. But to be honest I'd rather have Koan tell it in her own wonderful way!:D
  13. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

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    Kem chho, Koan

    First of all, I really appreciate your contributions to my campaign to place lug-bhug in the American vernacular. Or better yet, in the hip-hop vernacular. The day I hear Tom Brokaw or Dr. Phil say "lug-bhug" on national TV I can die a happy man. (Actually, I probably WILL die of laughter on that day).

    So- WOW! You've been to Ahmedebad a lot? Most of my family lives there! (Or in Delhi.) Actually both my parents are from Gujarat; my dad was a Gujarati Jain and my mom's a Marathi Hindu, but they met in Minnesota. No kidding. So I guess you're familiar with all the wondrous Gujarati desserts, eh? Personal favorites: something called "dud pakh", another called "srikand", another more common one you must have tried, "firni"...Plus the odd but wonderful saffron ice cream... Or the so-called "Bombay Halva". Not to mention the regular food...any favorites? Hope you didn't get "Delhi belly" over there, though almost everyone does sooner or later unless you boil all your water and NEVER eat food from the vendors, no matter how tempting...
    Btw, did you notice what my sister and I call the "Gujarati scowl"? That's the I-just-sucked-three-lemons facial expression that comes standard on most men's (and even women's) faces that is unique to many provinces of Gujurat.

    I've actually heard of SEWA! Wow, Koan, you've been doing good things for a long time, apparently! Bless you. How did you wind up doing that?

    I had to quote this because the term "virtual Sanghas" keeps cracking me up! Talk about "the world of illusion"! HA HA HA! ( I refuse to write "lol". It offends my sensibilities. But I don't mind if others use it. What people choose to do in the privacy of their own homes...etc.)
    Yes, his whole side of the family is Jain. However, he and his sister were the oddballs of the family; they were both agnostic and very liberal-minded...He still had a religious sensibility, but had a Marxist tendency to look down on organized religion of any kind. He had no objection to my Mom feeding us meat (her family is not vegetarian). When his family came to visit from India, though, we had to throw out any meat - and certain root vegetables - in the house since the very sight of it would have upset them. Sadly, I haven't been to India since I was very young, but my earliest memories are of India.

    Can't help you much there. I can understand a lot of Gujarati, but not speak it too well, for some reason.. And the words I do easily remember are all the curse words, because as a Gujarati child, that's what one hears the most... Did you have to speak a lot of Gujarati there? I'm sure you'll recall "kem chho", meaning how are you/ how's it going. And you must have asked "tamaru bathroom kya che"? a lot (especially if you got Delhi belly..:p) At least you got "lug-bhug" down. I have a funny addendum to that, but I think I'll send it to your profile later, so that this doesn't become the Gujarati thread! (Though that would be fun...)

    Shanti, Koan
  14. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

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    Kem chho, Koan

    First of all, I really appreciate your contributions to my campaign to place lug-bhug in the American vernacular. Or better yet, in the hip-hop vernacular. The day I hear Tom Brokaw or Dr. Phil say "lug-bhug" on national TV I can die a happy man. (Actually, I probably WILL die of laughter on that day).

    So- WOW! You've been to Ahmedebad a lot? Most of my family lives there! (Or in Delhi.) Actually both my parents are from Gujarat; my dad was a Gujarati Jain and my mom's a Marathi Hindu, but they met in Minnesota. No kidding. So I guess you're familiar with all the wondrous Gujarati desserts, eh? Personal favorites: something called "dud pakh", another called "srikand", another more common one you must have tried, "firni"...Plus the odd but wonderful saffron ice cream... Or the so-called "Bombay Halva". Not to mention the regular food...any favorites? Hope you didn't get "Delhi belly" over there, though almost everyone does sooner or later unless you boil all your water and NEVER eat food from the vendors, no matter how tempting...
    Btw, did you notice what my sister and I call the "Gujarati scowl"? That's the I-just-sucked-three-lemons facial expression that comes standard on most men's (and even women's) faces that is unique to many provinces of Gujurat.

    I've actually heard of SEWA! Wow, Koan, you've been doing good things for a long time, apparently! Bless you. How did you wind up doing that?

    I had to quote this because the term "virtual Sanghas" keeps cracking me up! Talk about "the world of illusion"! HA HA HA! ( I refuse to write "lol". It offends my sensibilities. But I don't mind if others use it. What people choose to do in the privacy of their own homes...etc.)
    Yes, his whole side of the family is Jain. However, he and his sister were the oddballs of the family; they were both agnostic and very liberal-minded...He still had a religious sensibility, but had a Marxist tendency to look down on organized religion of any kind. He had no objection to my Mom feeding us meat (her family is not vegetarian). When his family came to visit from India, though, we had to throw out any meat - and certain root vegetables - in the house since the very sight of it would have upset them. Sadly, I haven't been to India since I was very young, but my earliest memories are of India.

    Can't help you much there. I can understand a lot of Gujarati, but not speak it too well, for some reason.. And the words I do easily remember are all the curse words, because as a Gujarati child, that's what one hears the most... Did you have to speak a lot of Gujarati there? I'm sure you'll recall "kem chho", meaning how are you/ how's it going. And you must have asked "tamaru bathroom kya che"? a lot (especially if you got Delhi belly..:p) At least you got "lug-bhug" down. I have a funny addendum to that, but I think I'll send it to your profile later, so that this doesn't become the Gujarati thread! (Though that would be fun...)

    Shanti, Koan
  15. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

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    Bay Area, California
    This thread took off! :) Yay. Yes Dr. Yes this is exactly what I had in mind when I started it only I had no idea it would be this good. What amazing thoughts and ideas you have all contributed so far. I've found myself smiling and nodding and laughing.

    Aummmmmm

    George and Islandfinn-- thanks for the Dharma talks online. Those look and sound wonderful. I like to fall asleep to that kind of talk next to my laptop.

    gracenote -- I know exactly what you are talking about with your feelings about the way Christianity was taught to you. I've experienced something very similar to that myself when I married, not from my own husband luckily, but I was amazed at how badly it played with my head. It took many self-help books for me to work through it. You've put into words just how I felt, especially the part about "the whole Eve thing". Oooh shudder. I agree with what Koan said too. It's a such a shame when people misuse Jesus's messages to control others. I adhere to the idea that Jesus was a BuJew, I think John the Baptist was too.

    I agree that CFS is like viral Buddhism. That is a brilliant way of putting it.
  16. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,513
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    Bay Area, California
    This thread took off! :) Yay. Yes Dr. Yes this is exactly what I had in mind when I started it only I had no idea it would be this good. What amazing thoughts and ideas you have all contributed so far. I've found myself smiling and nodding and laughing.

    Aummmmmm

    George and Islandfinn-- thanks for the Dharma talks online. Those look and sound wonderful. I like to fall asleep to that kind of talk next to my laptop.

    gracenote -- I know exactly what you are talking about with your feelings about the way Christianity was taught to you. I've experienced something very similar to that myself when I married, not from my own husband luckily, but I was amazed at how badly it played with my head. It took many self-help books for me to work through it. You've put into words just how I felt, especially the part about "the whole Eve thing". Oooh shudder. I agree with what Koan said too. It's a such a shame when people misuse Jesus's messages to control others. I adhere to the idea that Jesus was a BuJew, I think John the Baptist was too.

    I agree that CFS is like viral Buddhism. That is a brilliant way of putting it.
  17. fresh_eyes

    fresh_eyes happy to be here

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    mountains of north carolina
    Love the South Asia talk. My avatar is a friendly baby elephant I met in Nepal.

    Another Buddhist teacher with a chronic illness that sounds something like CFS is Ezra Bayda, student of Charlotte Joko Beck, author of At Home in the Muddy Water. (Lots of mud metaphors with these chronically ill folks! Perhaps it's viral mud. Viral buddha mud. But then, isn't everything?) (*mysterious zen master/elephant smile*)

    And of course there's Ken Wilber, as mentioned in another thread. I understand he was in the original Tahoe outbreak, when he and his wife moved there during her battle with cancer (as documented in his book Grace and Grit.)
  18. fresh_eyes

    fresh_eyes happy to be here

    Messages:
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    mountains of north carolina
    Love the South Asia talk. My avatar is a friendly baby elephant I met in Nepal.

    Another Buddhist teacher with a chronic illness that sounds something like CFS is Ezra Bayda, student of Charlotte Joko Beck, author of At Home in the Muddy Water. (Lots of mud metaphors with these chronically ill folks! Perhaps it's viral mud. Viral buddha mud. But then, isn't everything?) (*mysterious zen master/elephant smile*)

    And of course there's Ken Wilber, as mentioned in another thread. I understand he was in the original Tahoe outbreak, when he and his wife moved there during her battle with cancer (as documented in his book Grace and Grit.)
  19. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    Santa Rosa, CA
    lug-bhug on Dr. Oz

    Dr. Yes. Your campaign to get lug-bhug on national TV can be done. We have the talent here to make it happen. I suggest we start, not with Dr. Phil, but with Dr. Oz. We like him. He likes us. We just had a successful campaign with him. We could enlist Dr. Donnica (one of our star forum members) to take this message to The Dr. Oz Show. Maybe they would even make a little video of what lug-bhug would look like as it enters into and joins the common vernacular. Before you know it, lug-bhug will be as much a part of any converstion as XMRV. Soon you'd also be hearing from Dr. Teitelbaum who would further spread the word. Heck, he will even think it was his idea to spread the world. Lug-bhug could go big. We want you, Dr. Yes, to be a happy laughing man! Ha Ha Ha!
  20. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    Santa Rosa, CA
    lug-bhug on Dr. Oz

    Dr. Yes. Your campaign to get lug-bhug on national TV can be done. We have the talent here to make it happen. I suggest we start, not with Dr. Phil, but with Dr. Oz. We like him. He likes us. We just had a successful campaign with him. We could enlist Dr. Donnica (one of our star forum members) to take this message to The Dr. Oz Show. Maybe they would even make a little video of what lug-bhug would look like as it enters into and joins the common vernacular. Before you know it, lug-bhug will be as much a part of any converstion as XMRV. Soon you'd also be hearing from Dr. Teitelbaum who would further spread the word. Heck, he will even think it was his idea to spread the world. Lug-bhug could go big. We want you, Dr. Yes, to be a happy laughing man! Ha Ha Ha!

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