Buddhism & CFS

[starcycle]

After I was struck by lightning in 1979, a medicine man I know instructed me, and worked with me for several years, on rituals to aid myself in becoming more re-grounded to the earth. He was a very sweet and non-judgmental old shaman, who had no problem with white people participating in native rituals, provided that their heart was in the right place.

On the other hand, I lived with several (white) people back in the 1980's who were INVITED to participate in both sweat lodges and peyote rituals by some Native Americans they knew who led them. There were some very ultra sleezy Native Americans in that circle, who were VERY sexually inappropriate, using their power as leaders to manipulate and seduce the young white women. An ugly scene that I am very glad to have bypassed.

What makes something sacred is the intention behind it. When you learn that it's called wisdom.

We can go back and forth all day about who we each knew, what they each said, personal anecdotes, etc. and it's not likely to get us very far. It doesn't change the fundamental point regarding having respect for the culture.

Because even you just said, "provided that their heart was in the right place." That means that you listened to what he said, and you accepted it and presumably went along with it. You didn't spit in his face and say that what he said was crazy, and that the way it really was is some other way. You didn't take his rituals and then go turn them into something else, claiming it was "founded" on what he said it meant.

So the point you seem to be missing is that when a group of people takes the "old testament" and claims that it's saying something other than what the people whose book and culture it is say it means, then their "hearts" may or may not be in the "right place," but the point is that their actions certainly aren't. They are being violent, it's pretty much as simple as that. It would be akin to you taking whatever the medicine man gave you and doing something profane with it.

You wouldn't do that, would you? And yet you defend when people do that to the Torah. So it's kind of a double standard, but I guess sometimes that's hard for people to see.

 

[fresh_eyes]

Hey folks, I think Starcycle might be teasing us. In an earlier post he/she wrote:

I practiced buddhism for years before I got sick...It's all just dukkha, and what trungpa rinpoche has called "nostalgia for samsara."...Going through all the jhanas and the highest levels of meditation takes an incredible amount of energy...You'd probably fry your brain going through that, or your entire body as it was overloaded with kundalini energy...So in my view there's really not much to do but ride out the karma until hopefully getting a new body/mind at some time to continue with more skillful means....

Surely that's an example of appropriating the culture(s) of others? In a totally spiritually valid way?

(But believe me, I will refrain from now on from comments that reflect, however indirectly, on the Torah!)

 

[Dr. Yes]

You mean we can't compare religions anymore? And I can't talk about Joseph Campbell? And freshie can't tell us any more Zen inspirations she had about a possible metaphorical interpretation of a cultural concept? Then what are we going to talk about? I'm confused!
<---(See??)

 

[starcycle]

Hey folks, I think Starcycle might be teasing us. In an earlier post he/she wrote:



Surely that's an example of appropriating the culture(s) of others? In a totally spiritually valid way?

(But believe me, I will refrain from now on from comments that reflect, however indirectly, on the Torah!)

How did I appropriate anything? The Buddha himself says that it's possible to get sick to the extent that one can't practice Dhamma. He talks about all kinds of kammic events that lead to situations like that, calling them unfortunate, not auspicious, etc.

The Buddha also was giving his teachings for all humanity, unlike the Torah, which according to that tradition was given *only* to the Jews (we've all seen the "10 Commandments," I'm sure. If we reacll, the Torah was given to Moses to give to the Jews, not given to the Egyptians or other gentiles).

According to Judaism, gentiles aren't even supposed to follow the 10 commandments (i.e., the 613 commandments that are derived from them) -- gentiles are not supposed to observe Sabbath, for example -- so you can see how much it's been misrepresented and indeed completely twisted by those who appropriated it.

The book was written by and for Jews, not gentiles. The gentiles have just taken it and pretended it's theirs, corrupting and perverting it for centuries now. So defend that all you want -- try to make jokes at my expense if it makes you feel better -- but it doesn't change the basic facts as I've stated them. The violence of doing that has just be naturalized by the christian culture that appropriated it in the first place, so it's not surprising that people from that culture would resist those kinds of truths.

 

[starcycle]

You mean we can't compare religions anymore? And I can't talk about Joseph Campbell? And freshie can't tell us any more Zen inspirations she had about a possible metaphorical interpretation of a cultural concept? Then what are we going to talk about? I'm confused!
<---(See??)

But you're not really comparing religions. You are comparing your wrong *idea* of the religion, which is not the reality of that religion. So it would be like me saying I have a book that shows that jesus is a gay child molester, and since that's what christianity says, now I'm going to compare that to Islam. But xianity doesn't interpret its book that way, so I am starting from a false starting point. Just as you are when you "interpret" the garden of eden story in ways that it is not intended to be interpreted.

If you want to compare religions, you first have to understand what they say. You are skipping that part, and are just comparing something that you have made up about what it says, which bears no resemblance at all to what the people from whose culture it comes says it means. So go study with the rabbi to understand what it says, and then you can compare it. Until then, you're just comparing your own wrong ideas with whatever you're comparing them to.

 

[gracenote]

me too

You mean we can't compare religions anymore? And I can't talk about Joseph Campbell? And freshie can't tell us any more Zen inspirations she had about a possible metaphorical interpretation of a cultural concept? Then what are we going to talk about? I'm confused!
<---(See??)

Yeah, me too.

<---

I want to talk about it all. This was such an inspiring place to hang out. It fed my soul.

 

[starcycle]

Yeah, me too.

<---

I want to talk about it all. This was such an inspiring place to hang out. It fed my soul.

It seems that you just want to talk about the same ideas you have had your entire life, instead of learning something new (which can make people uncomfortable).

In Zen, they sometimes call this the need to "empty one's glass." When you are filled with your own ideas, nothing else can come in. And that can lead to confusion, definitely. And discomfort.

 

[Lily]

When you are filled with your own ideas, nothing else can come in.

Hmmmmm......I guess that could happen -

 

[fresh_eyes]

I love this thread too, gracenote. How can we save it?

 

[starcycle]

Hmmmmm......I guess that could happen -

If you are trying to say that about me, it is really a wrong idea. I have had all the "let's compare all religions" and "all religions are 'one'" ideas, and I have gone beyond all that to arrive at what appears to be a more historically and culturally accurate position.

So my glass that was filled with all the wrong christian/gentile "interpetations" of the "bible," "garden of eden," Joseph Campbell "insights," etc. has already been emptied by Jews a long time ago (whose book it is), and I came to understand how ignorant I was about their culture and religion. Once I became more educated, I had a better grasp not only of Judaism, but of the complex interplay between these various ideologies and history and culture.

So when you empty your ideas, you can actually come to a much broader and usually more accurate understanding. Repeating some Joseph Campbell ideas about what he thinks the Torah says is not going to do that. You haven't really learned anything about that culture or its significance. It's actually kind of a joke to even compare a guy like that to the Torah scholars. he is miles out of his league.

 

[CJB]

How did I appropriate anything? The Buddha himself says that it's possible to get sick to the extent that one can't practice Dhamma. He talks about all kinds of kammic events that lead to situations like that, calling them unfortunate, not auspicious, etc.

The Buddha also was giving his teachings for all humanity, unlike the Torah, which according to that tradition was given *only* to the Jews (we've all seen the "10 Commandments," I'm sure. If we reacll, the Torah was given to Moses to give to the Jews, not given to the Egyptians or other gentiles).

According to Judaism, gentiles aren't even supposed to follow the 10 commandments (i.e., the 613 commandments that are derived from them) -- gentiles are not supposed to observe Sabbath, for example -- so you can see how much it's been misrepresented and indeed completely twisted by those who appropriated it.

The book was written by and for Jews, not gentiles. The gentiles have just taken it and pretended it's theirs, corrupting and perverting it for centuries now. So defend that all you want -- try to make jokes at my expense if it makes you feel better -- but it doesn't change the basic facts as I've stated them. The violence of doing that has just be naturalized by the christian culture that appropriated it in the first place, so it's not surprising that people from that culture would resist those kinds of truths.

Ahem -- Jesus was a Jew.....

I'm sorry this thread has deterioriated the way it has. I don't feel like anyone was making jokes at your expense.

The naturalization of violence phrase -- well, let's just say I'd like some further explanation. Resisting truth? Hmmm.

My last post on this thread. It was so good for a time.

 

[gracenote]

my glass got emptied

It seems that you just want to talk about the same ideas you have had your entire life, instead of learning something new (which can make people uncomfortable).

In Zen, they sometimes call this the need to "empty one's glass." When you are filled with your own ideas, nothing else can come in. And that can lead to confusion, definitely. And discomfort.

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian. I am the daughter of missionary parents and a granddaughter of missionary grandparents. I went to Bible school and lived a very conservative Christian life until I was forty.

Now I like to hang out on the Buddhism thread (actually BOTH of them), the dream interpretation thread, the tree thread, and Jung's Big Red Book thread. I think my glass got pretty emptied. I think my family is worried about me. So many new ideas, so little time . . . Not confused. Not uncomfortable.

Now, where were we?

 

[starcycle]

Ahem -- Jesus was a Jew.....

I'm sorry this thread has deterioriated the way it has. I don't feel like anyone was making jokes at your expense.

The naturalization of violence phrase -- well, let's just say I'd like some further explanation. Resisting truth? Hmmm.

My last post on this thread. It was so good for a time.

jesus was a jew. So what? So is Rabbi Weinstein. What does that have to do with anything?

According to the Torah, jesus is not the messiah. he didn't build the Third Temple, for one. he also didn't usher in an era of peace, with no war, suffering or disease. The Torah says the messiah will do those things. jesus didn't do them. The idea of a trinity itself is *incompatible* with Jewish theology. It doesn't work.

All of those ideas are extremely offensive from a Torah point of view - a torah that was never intended for gentiles to begin with! So where did they get it? Please tell me where the western world got the "old testament." Did they write it themselves? They had to get it from somewhere, right? So where did they get it from?

A: They appropriated it from the jews.

So if the christians want to have their religion with saviors and all the rest of their religion - fine! Who cares? But when they take the book of another religion and then turn around and claim their religion is "based" on that book, when in reality that book and religion is *incompatible* with what they are claiming, then houston we have a problem!

Is that really so hard to understand? That book -- the Torah -- belongs to another people, not yours. Making up these "interpretations" of "what it means," is a form of violence against that culture. You are taking what isn't yours, and spitting in the faces of the people you took it from. It isn't yours, do you understand that? When you take something that isn't yours, and then pervert it, then yes, that's a form of violence. Of course it is. What do you call it? Being neighborly?

 

[fresh_eyes]

In Zen, they sometimes call this the need to "empty one's glass." When you are filled with your own ideas, nothing else can come in. And that can lead to confusion, definitely. And discomfort.

When you take something that isn't yours, and then pervert it, then yes, that's a form of violence. Of course it is. What do you call it? Being neighborly?

I really hate to give up on this lovely thread...

 

[starcycle]

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian. I am the daughter of missionary parents and a granddaughter of missionary grandparents. I went to Bible school and lived a very conservative Christian life until I was forty.

Now I like to hang out on the Buddhism thread (actually BOTH of them), the dream interpretation thread, the tree thread, and Jung's Big Red Book thread. I think my glass got pretty emptied. I think my family is worried about me. So many new ideas, so little time . . . Not confused. Not uncomfortable.

Now, where were we?

So you have more right to be here and express your ideas that I do? Is that what you're saying? Furthermore, your ideas are somehow more valid than mine are, because you were a fundamentalist christian?

So it looks like the fundamentalist christians want to take over the Buddhist thread now, just like they took over the Torah, just like they took over the entire continent, in fact. It seems the christians aren't happy unless they are taking over everything and dictating that everyone else behave, think, write, speak according to their standards, their "rules."

Sorry, friend - I don't play by those rules! I might say a lot of things that you don't like, but isn't that the price we pay when we champion values like free speech? I know the christian impulse and tendency is to shut down anything that questions christianity in any way, anything the christians don't want to hear, anything that makes them uncomfortable, but at the end of the day it seems that I have as much right to be here and express my views as you do, wouldn't you agree?

And if I'm adding this to the thread, isn't it a little bit patronizing of you to try to marginalize me by saying things like "now where were we?" like what I am saying is not important or valid in any way, while I guess you think what you are saying is of paramount importance?

 

[Lily]

If you are trying to say that about me, it is really a wrong idea. I have had all the "let's compare all religions" and "all religions are 'one'" ideas, and I have gone beyond all that to arrive at what appears to be a more historically and culturally accurate position.

So my glass that was filled with all the wrong christian/gentile "interpetations" of the "bible," "garden of eden," Joseph Campbell "insights," etc. has already been emptied by Jews a long time ago (whose book it is), and I came to understand how ignorant I was about their culture and religion. Once I became more educated, I had a better grasp not only of Judaism, but of the complex interplay between these various ideologies and history and culture.

So when you empty your ideas, you can actually come to a much broader and usually more accurate understanding. Repeating some Joseph Campbell ideas about what he thinks the Torah says is not going to do that. You haven't really learned anything about that culture or its significance. It's actually kind of a joke to even compare a guy like that to the Torah scholars. he is miles out of his league.

While I appreciate your advancement in this area, starcycle, perhaps we all have to get there at our own pace and in our own way. Apparently, many of us enjoy and appreciate this thread. It's OK if you don't. When a certain thread doesn't ring true for me, I don't participate in it.

Fresh_Eyes, I think we save this thread simply by carrying on, don't you? We aren't up to arguing with starcycle, that would defeat the initial purpose of this thread - so.........we just don't do that. Right? We move on. No disrespect intended to you, starcycle.

 

[starcycle]

I really hate to give up on this lovely thread...

No one is keeping you here. Go if you don't like it. Sorry, but why should I be marginalized?

I am not the one who is doing violence against another culture. I'm not making pronouncements about what their book means that have nothing to do with their tradition whatsoever. I'm only defending that culture against a kind of injustice, of it being "mis/interpreted" by people who relatively are more ignorant about it and who somehow think they are "entitled" to say whatever they want about it, however inaccurate it is.

So if you're ignorant about another culture and you don't even want to learn how you are being violent toward it, then whose glass is it that is actually full? Here's a hint: it's not mine.

 

[Robin]

The book was written by and for Jews, not gentiles. The gentiles have just taken it and pretended it's theirs, corrupting and perverting it for centuries now. So defend that all you want -- try to make jokes at my expense if it makes you feel better -- but it doesn't change the basic facts as I've stated them. The violence of doing that has just be naturalized by the christian culture that appropriated it in the first place, so it's not surprising that people from that culture would resist those kinds of truths.

Hi everyone!

I've had a note or two about this thread.

Generally the policy here is "anything goes" as long as it doesn't get personal. It seems to have gotten personal here?

I'm unsure if it's a misunderstanding or just a difference of opinion. Be that as it may, it doesn't seem to me that anyone attempted to offend or make jokes.

Can the discussion be non-accusatory, and framed in the spirit of open curiosity? We all come from various religious backgrounds and whatever happened historically was not done by the people discussing it here. Use the opportunity to teach rather than discredit.

This was a lovely thread, let's try to revive it by keeping the conversation respectful and neutral.

 

[Robin]

No one is keeping you here. Go if you don't like it. Sorry, but why should I be marginalized?

I am not the one who is doing violence against another culture. I'm not making pronouncements about what their book means that have nothing to do with their tradition whatsoever. I'm only defending that culture against a kind of injustice, of it being "mis/interpreted" by people who relatively are more ignorant about it and who somehow think they are "entitled" to say whatever they want about it, however inaccurate it is.

So if you're ignorant about another culture and you don't even want to learn how you are being violent toward it, then whose glass is it that is actually full? Here's a hint: it's not mine.

Starcycle, take an hour or two away from the thread, OK?

 

[starcycle]

Moderator Edit: things are getting too personal!