brian nicholson detained in psyschiatric unit with me cfs for 3 years

[Snowdrop]

I don't know. Is it that obvious or simple?
I have trouble imagining that all the people around them are so easily conned and/or willing to support this type of behaviour.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised or baffled by this but I am.

 

[CantThink]

I don't know. Is it that obvious or simple?
I have trouble imagining that all the people around them are so easily conned and/or willing to support this type of behaviour.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised or baffled by this but I am.

It's just my opinion. I'm not implying it is simple - far from it - but I do think that this probably underpins it with the controlling individual. I'm sure there are other factors in addition to this.

Think about a doctors who has serial killed - time and time again like Dr Shipman, or publically adored figures like Jimmy Saville who were able to abuse 100s of people.... People even assisted him in perpetrating the abuse and/or turned a blind eye, yet because of his overall charismatic and beloved public persona no one believed it when victims or others tried to raise potential red flags.

How do dictators and leaders get their underlings to perform atrocious acts? Or to 'knuckle under' and just accept the status quo. How are entire nations such as Russia or North Korea controlled by one person (and their underlings)? Or cults exist with one leader...

There seems to be brainwashing, manipulation, implied threat (of harm to person, family or career etc - keeps everyone in check), charisma, skilled lying, myth creation ('the great leader' of a nation) etc ...

I can imagine in medicine those under the person's spell probably have an ingrained respect for hierarchy.

Example, if person A worked under Dr Evil, and saw him for who he really was, yet everyone else was drinking the 'he is the almighty all knowing Dr E' coolaid, would Person A blow the whistle and risk their career/being blacklisted for potentially no gain... Even if they did, would they be believed?

I know of numerous patient/doctor situations where the patient doesn't risk complaining because there is the implied threat that if they do, they will be blacklisted and no other doctors will touch them. This happened to a friend of mine in Ireland with complex medical problems, and another friend in the US who has botched surgery that has damaged her for life. They filed complaints and both became unable to get help from other doctors/surgeons - they closed ranks with their colleagues. In fact my friend in Ireland warned me not to complain in case t happened to me.

 

[jimells]

am against forced psychiatric treatment in most cases but i think this is a case where forced monthly antipsychotic injections could do a lot of good. Why are insane psychiatrists still allowed to practice?

In theory, yes, but not when it is ME and the doctor doesn't accept its existence.

Oh. i thought @chipmunk1 was suggesting the insane psychiatrist needs a monthly injection, not B.

 

[CantThink]

Oh. i thought @chipmunk1 was suggesting the insane psychiatrist needs a monthly injection, not B.

I am confused, because I thought that too!

 

[jimells]

I have trouble imagining that all the people around them are so easily conned and/or willing to support this type of behaviour.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised or baffled by this but I am.

Yes I agree it is difficult to accept, but society works hard to make us that way. Practically right from birth we are trained to obey and admire strong war-like leaders like Presidents, who solve nearly every problem with violence and coercion or the threat of it, at least In the US,

Kids are subjected to a least a dozen years of "obedience training" in public schools. I have seen reports that some schools spend more on "security" than they do on teaching staff. If kids actually learn to read and write then that is a happy side effect.

The biggest crime one can commit is "Failure to Obey" any orders given by any cop, and the penalty can be immediately inflicted with a bullet to the back. Beatings and other rough treatment, even torture are common (see Chicago P.D. Holman Square).

At work we are constantly exhorted to be "team players", a nice euphemism for telling the Boss what they want to hear and never disagreeing with them. The alternative is unemployment and living on the street, so people learn to keep their heads down, follow orders, and don't ask questions. I imagine this is how it works where B has been incarcerated.

Maybe the real surprise is that there are still people whose indoctrination has failed to take hold properly.

 

[CantThink]

society works hard to make us that way.

This is true. From very young we are taught that medicine is a respectable and desirable profession, that doctors are people who are kind & caring and do the job because they want to help people, and that we should (blindly) trust them.

As a child, no one was more surprised than me that not only could the doctor who diagnosed me with M.E. not cure me, but he also wanted to take me in for a week of psychiatric observations, and then... After escaping him, when 4 years later a second paediatrician brought in a social worker to question me in secret without my mother's knowledge/consent because I had a bruise in my knee (a stranger had pushed me over at an amusement park) that they believed was inflicted on me by one of my parents. Edited to add: the paediatrician had questioned me about it but obviously didn't believe me, despite the bruise occurring while I was with a teacher and not my parents.

I soon learned not to trust doctors!

 

[MeSci]

As a child, no one was more surprised than me that not only could the doctor who diagnosed me with M.E. not cure me, but he also wanted to take me in for a week of psychiatric observations, and then... After escaping him, when 4 years later a second paediatrician brought in a social worker to question me in secret without my mother's knowledge/consent because I had a bruise in my knee (a stranger had pushed me over at an amusement park) that they believed was inflicted on me by one of my parents. Edited to add: the paediatrician had questioned me about it but obviously didn't believe me, despite the bruise occurring while I was with a teacher and not my parents.

I soon learned not to trust doctors!

Presumably they did accept your explanation eventually? In a way perhaps it was good that they were being thorough in investigating what they saw as a possible case of physical abuse.

 

[CantThink]

Presumably they did accept your explanation eventually? In a way perhaps it was good that they were being thorough in investigating what they saw as a possible case of physical abuse.

I can see why you'd think that, although I don't really agree as I don't think a bruise on a child's knee is all that uncommon or indicative of potential child abuse. I believe there are other areas of the body that would be more 'red flags' - typically areas of the body that are not so naturally/accidentally damaged by childhood activities. I went to dance class (before I was sick) with a girl who had 'hand prints' on her upper thigh and lower area of her buttocks.

There were two or three things (as far as I'm concerned) that were odd about it:
- I had an M.E. diagnosis (and was previously accused of hysteria/somatisation)
-I had a bad bruise on my knee

Yet suddenly... The first two equals:
- There was a social worker waiting in the wings for me

To answer your question, I was (I believe) really lucky that the social worker was sensible and obviously didn't have some sick underlying agenda. I know of other children that were taken away around the same time period (early to mid 90s). It's just hard to feel safe when coming into contact with these powerful figures (doctors who can make wrong assumptions and trump your self reporting), especially when you have grown up with that type of threat hanging over you. I was so glad when I turned of legal age that I could no longer be removed from the family home, or so I thought! Until I learnt about KH, and B and Sophia Mirza etc.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I don't think a bruise on a child's knee is all that uncommon or indicative of potential child abuse.

I'm sure glad that I did not get interrogated every time I skinned a knee!

 

[MeSci]

I'm sure glad that I did not get interrogated every time I skinned a knee!

I agree - if that was the only clue they had to go on. But social workers do have a difficult job, and tend to be blamed for failing to protect children who are being abused and also for mistakenly acting on suspected abuse which is non-existent.

 

[CantThink]

I agree - if that was the only clue they had to go on. But social workers do have a difficult job, and tend to be blamed for failing to protect children who are being abused and also for mistakenly acting on suspected abuse which is non-existent.

I agree that the job of social worker is difficult. Ironically years later I worked front line for social services for a while. That stress made me so ill!

Anyway, it wasn't the social worker I had an issue with (she was just doing her job), it was the doctor who was assessing/treating me who made the 'potential abuse' judgement call based on - as far as I have ever been able to understand: one severely scraped/bruised knee and a 12/13 year old with an M.E. diagnosis.

The Dr was the one who called the SW and arranged the covert assessment of me by the SW - the SW had clearly been briefed to ask me about the knee. Maybe I'm wrong, but it really seemed to me that because I had M.E. and hadn't got better, they were looking for some reason as to why, and up until that point all their reasons were psych/somatisation based, so this was just a slight side step to potentially blame the parents rather than blame CantThink.

Coming on from this, a big part of the problem IMO - in cases like B's - arises when one or two doctors start to create their own myth about what's going on, and then get the other staff involved (who are just following orders/under the doctors). The fact the other staff are then essentially going along with it (because they have to or feel they have to), perhaps creates an impression of agreement, even if they don't or didn't agree with the judgements/diagnosis/decisions being made by the head doctor/s....

How do these lower staff members go against the opinions of the others or those higher than them?

To anyone who just looks at it from the outside, it probably seems rational because 'how can so many people be wrong ?'. There is safety in numbers. It seems to me that this potentially creates an illusion of truth to the situation, and after some time, it is/would be difficult for any 3rd party to pick apart what is going on as the case is too involved and there are too many lies or incidences of twisting the truth.

 

[PhoenixDown]

I was sectioned for a month in 2014 so I know how it feels to be imprisoned with no one there believing you. One of the quacks who had me sectioned said my M.E was somatization disorder - he told social services not to reveal my diagnosis to me, I had to request my records under the Data Protection Act to find this out. The staff at the hospital told me I wasn't in any pain and they forced me to walk around even though I was bedbound. I wasn't offered an electric wheelchair. If I didn't walk I wasn't fed properly, staff would ask me if I wanted something to eat, and when I replied I can't walk without making my condition worse they said "so you don't want any food then". The experience has left my ME permanently worse I'm now completely bed bound except for showering once a week. At one point I collapsed due to side effects from my medication and the staff refused to help me up.

I've since complained about my sectioning and the way I was treated so far to no avail (I skipped PALS as I know from past experience that they're useless). In their response to my initial complaints they've completely ignored my M.E stating that nothing showed up on tests, simultaneously providing no evidence for their psychiatric diagnosis. They denied telling me I wasn't in any pain.

I've tried to take legal action against them but no one would take on my case because I have no objective proof that I have M.E. I'm awaiting a reply from the ombudsman as they are looking in to my case.

How this can happen in the 21st century, in an age of reason, is truly saddening.

 

[Ellie_Finesse]

I am really sorry this happened to you @PhoenixDown. I have read way too many stories on here that are shocking am appalled that in this day and age people are being treated like this.


Sending you and everyone else a much needed hug.

 

[Countrygirl]

@PhoenixDown just reading your post makes me very angry and I am so sorry that you have been exposed to this type of abuse from the medical profession. As you say, it never seems possible to get a complaint to be taken seriously, so perhaps we should name and shame on public forums as these abusers otherwise get away with it. Some professionals may actually genuinely believe that they are reacting appropriately because of their total misconception of the illness, but ignorance is never an excuse in the eyes of the law.

I was also in a similar position. I was admitted to the large Bristol hospital under a kind and knowledgeable consultant but he couldn't protect me from abuse by the staff who did not believe in ME. I was in the chronic and terminal ward for three months for nursing care (!) and it was a horrible experience. Like you, they told me if I wanted to eat I had to walk to the dining room when I was just too ill to do so. I would collapse on the floor unable to get up as I made the attempt. The nurses refused to help me up and just left me lying in the main corridor on the floor while they walked around me. When patients tried to help the nurses (all auxiliaries) told them to leave me there. It was a miserable three months.

Prior to that I belonged to what had the reputation of being one of the two worst surgeries in the UK for ME; Sidmouth in Devon (the other was Cambridge at the time). (Sidmouth was so bad that it features a number of times in the so-called secret files and it is where my friend the local rector died of ME when too sick to feed himself after the GP barred him from any help.) I was very sick and without a diagnosis at that stage, but the GP told me if I continued to complain of being ill then 'I will have you locked away for a long time'. As I became sicker this is just what she tried to do. She had me taken to a unit where Brian is now, although a different one. I remember the horror I felt when a great heavy door was slammed shut behind me and a large key was turned in the lock. It was only then that I realised what exactly my GP had done I was horrified and felt totally crushed. My crime was to have a physical illness that my GP couldn't diagnose. Fortunately, the psychiatrist who interviewed me said he couldn't understand why I was there and packed me off home again that afternoon. He later wrote a letter to get me admitted to a nursing home for chronically ill and terminal people. Had I fallen into the hands of Brian's doctor I might still be there to this day.

The local hospital, the Wonford in Exeter, treated/treats children in a similar fashion. Under the consultant paediatrician there he had the ME children removed from their parents and placed in locked wards. They were told if they wanted to eat that had to actually prepare their meals themselves, which they were too sick to do.The parents were banned from visiting during the week. By this time I was a group leader for one of the MEA groups and the parents in this position would contact me for help. Fortunately, on Saturdays parents could visit and take the child out into the grounds with the aid of a wheelchair where there was a convenient hole in the hedge. A car would just happen to be waiting there. I was in contact with an excellent retired paediatrician who is now deceased and we bundled the child in the car which was driven out of county away from the jurisdiction of the social workers and to the paediatrician's home. Only a few were rescued in this way as a hole in the hedge can only be used for a limited number of times. There was always a good outcome fortunately and the child returned home thanks to the intervention of the paediatrician. Today, of course, we have Dr Crawley with national influence and doctors like my kindly paediatrician who attempt to intervene when the child is abused by their doctors are reported to the GMC as is happening at this moment.

It is certainly a national scandal how people with potentially the most debilitating illness on the planet are abused by the UK medical profession. Now about ACTING UP..............................................

 

[justy]

I've tried to take legal action against them but no one would take on my case because I have no objective proof that I have M.E. I'm awaiting a reply from the ombudsman as they are looking in to my case.

And the problem is that any psychiatric diagnosis is always going to trump the M.E one as far as the authorities are concerned. All the psychiatrist has to say is yes I believe ME is a real disorder, but this patient doesn't have that, they have somatization etc.

I hope you don't mind me saying Phoenix that it is not just the hospital that wilfully ignore the rights of people with ME, but also the GP, care staff and SS.

I don't understand how the govt can say in answers in parliament that yes they officially recognise M.E, that the DWP says yes it officially recognised ME (despite SW's efforts to the contrary), and yet the health service and social services are allowed to abuse people in this way.

What about PWME contacting Amnesty International to see if they could help? This is what they say they do on their website:

We are Amnesty International UK. We work to protect men, women and children wherever justice, freedom, truth and dignity are denied.
As a global movement of over seven million people, Amnesty International is the world's largest grassroots human rights organisation. We investigate and expose abuses, educate and mobilise the public, and help transform societies to create a safer, more just world. We received the Nobel Peace Prize for our life-saving work.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/issues/About-Amnesty

Obviously the problem is that as a group of mainly very sick people we don't have the energy or ability to fight all these fights alone. What we need is an advocate just for people with ME. Perhaps that would be something worth crowdfunding for?

Just some ideas.

 

[Little Bluestem]

To anyone who just looks at it from the outside, it probably seems rational because 'how can so many people be wrong ?'. There is safety in numbers.

I recently heard about an experiment that dealt with this. A group of people (I think 4) were shown a series papers with two lines on them. They were to say with of the lines was longer. Only one person was actually a subject of the experiment. Unknown to them, the other people were part of the experiment.

After several papers on which everyone agreed which line was the longest, the people that were part of the experiment would say that the shorter line was the longer. In most cases, the subject would go along with them.

 

[MeSci]

I recently heard about an experiment that dealt with this. A group of people (I think 4) were shown a series papers with two lines on them. They were to say with of the lines was longer. Only one person was actually a subject of the experiment. Unknown to them, the other people were part of the experiment.

After several papers on which everyone agreed which line was the longest, the people that were part of the experiment would say that the shorter line was the longer. In most cases, the subject would go along with them.

This is it, I think.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

... I was admitted to the large Bristol hospital under a kind and knowledgeable consultant but he couldn't protect me from abuse by the staff who did not believe in ME. I was in the chronic and terminal ward for three months for nursing care (!) and it was a horrible experience. Like you, they told me if I wanted to eat I had to walk to the dining room when I was just too ill to do so. I would collapse on the floor unable to get up as I made the attempt. The nurses refused to help me up and just left me lying in the main corridor on the floor while they walked around me. When patients tried to help the nurses (all auxiliaries) told them to leave me there. It was a miserable three months.

Prior to that I belonged to what had the reputation of being one of the two worst surgeries in the UK for ME; Sidmouth in Devon (the other was Cambridge at the time). (Sidmouth was so bad that it features a number of times in the so-called secret files and it is where my friend the local rector died of ME when too sick to feed himself after the GP barred him from any help.) I was very sick and without a diagnosis at that stage, but the GP told me if I continued to complain of being ill then 'I will have you locked away for a long time'. As I became sicker this is just what she tried to do. She had me taken to a unit where Brian is now, although a different one. I remember the horror I felt when a great heavy door was slammed shut behind me and a large key was turned in the lock. It was only then that I realised what exactly my GP had done I was horrified and felt totally crushed. My crime was to have a physical illness that my GP couldn't diagnose. Fortunately, the psychiatrist who interviewed me said he couldn't understand why I was there and packed me off home again that afternoon. He later wrote a letter to get me admitted to a nursing home for chronically ill and terminal people....

It is certainly a national scandal how people with potentially the most debilitating illness on the planet are abused by the UK medical profession. Now about ACTING UP..............................................

@Countrygirl

This is a very powerful narrative.

May I put the above excerpt on facebook with the preface?:

"Be glad you don't have ME and live in the UK..."

 

[Cheshire]

This is all very appalling. I don't understand the rational behing these "treatments".

Even if you watch that from their psychosomatic point of view, (consequence of childhood trauma and so on), I don't see how brutalising patients could help. "You've been so abused in your life that you can no longer function, we'll cure you by abusing you even more." This is just insane. They don't treat people as MH sufferers but as you would with a capricious child having a tantrum. These people do not deserve to be called heath profesionals, they are just basic bullies.

I'm so sorry for those who had to undergo such a hardship.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

As you say, it never seems possible to get a complaint to be taken seriously, so perhaps we should name and shame on public forums as these abusers otherwise get away with it. Some professionals may actually genuinely believe that they are reacting appropriately because of their total misconception of the illness, but ignorance is never an excuse in the eyes of the law

We are social animals and shame is a powerful social lever for change.

It is a mostly untapped source of power for us. Building and executing a 'shame campaign' is the challenge.