The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Breaking News: ME is in the blood

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Countrygirl, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl I'm with Cheesus

    Messages:
    2,842
    Likes:
    14,506
    UK
  2. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,724
    Likes:
    23,015
    How difficult is it to isolate the factor that's responsible? Can we look forward to a paper on this in next year?

    Sounds like the proverbial smoking gun!
     
    merylg, taniaaust1, Webdog and 4 others like this.
  3. ash0787

    ash0787 Senior Member

    Messages:
    289
    Likes:
    570
    I think someone said that ron was already working on it, might be possible to figure out using metabolomics ?
    cant imagine its going to be easy.

    I think this rules out the argument that a metabolic process within the cells is broken though and the cells are shutting down to prevent damage ( one of the triggers suggested in the dauer state hypothesis )
     
  4. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes:
    5,084
    UK
    I notice that second tweet from Cort - in which he said healthy cells put into ME patients' blood will become dysfunctional - correlates to an article he wrote a while ago, in which the scientist he was interviewing noticed that NK cells behave normally when removed from the blood:

    http://www.healthrising.org/blog/20...ome-amenable-intervention-dr-broderick-talks/

    if the two things have the same cause, this would suggest it is something more broadly harmful than an autoantibody. Lipopolysaccharide?

    Or perhaps mitochondrial dysfunction has a broad effect across a number of different cell-types...?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
    ljimbo423, rosie26, Solstice and 6 others like this.
  5. skipskip30

    skipskip30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    239
    Likes:
    1,427
    I tested positive for anti mitochondrial antibodies about 15 years ago. I was tested for primary biliary cirrhosis which came back negative and so nothing more happened. Interestingly I was retested for anti mitochondrial antibodies about a year ago and the dr didn't find any.
     
  6. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

    Messages:
    11,870
    Likes:
    12,580
    Sth Australia
    this line of research sounds quite hopeful.
     
    merylg and ash0787 like this.
  7. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

    Messages:
    11,870
    Likes:
    12,580
    Sth Australia
    oh that could be bad if its something which is coming and going with us and not showing up all the time.

    I guess then it could possibly make it another ME/CFS consquence seeing so many of my symptoms come and go and just arent stable.
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,095
    Likes:
    13,860
    This tweet from Cort is also being discussed in this post and subsequent posts. Anti-mitochondrial autoantibodies may be the factor in the blood causing ME/CFS.
     
  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

    Messages:
    11,870
    Likes:
    12,580
    Sth Australia
    Ive been thinking further on this latest findings and wondering what the implications then have been to those we have donated blood too? I donated blood 2 or maybe 3 times while having ME (this was before they brought in that ME/CFS people couldnt donate blood). Does this mean that we contaminated the blood and damaged cells of the one who got it while they were trying to heal?
     
  10. Skippa

    Skippa Anti-BS

    Messages:
    841
    Likes:
    2,956
    Hmmmm... people with ME/CFS can't donate blood... even though it's all in our heads... hmmmm... who really knows something we don't?
     
  11. ZeroGravitas

    ZeroGravitas

    Messages:
    24
    Likes:
    204
    UK
    Bear in mind that Fluge and Mella already presented (probably) all of this in Norwegian: translated, here. As reported on by Cort in this article, stemming from this PR thread.

    I imagine (i.e. speculate that) their dysfunction measure could have been direct measurements of cellular metabolism, like the methods used by the group that found elevated ATP production. Or, during the conference, Jon D. Kaiser MD mentioned Agilent's 'Seahorse' equipment (their site with informative videos and diagrams), which seems to be an off the shelf solution for measuring oxygen consumption rate (and acidity) from a tiny (single) layer of sampled cells, in real time (to assess glycolosis rate, etc).

    So something like that, no need for Ron's magical new single cell exercise endurance testing gizmo (although that sounds more awesome). This comes from one of the panels which had a video steam up on OMF Facebook page and I made notes on here.

    Ron was also talking there (I think) about 'fractionalising' blood, to hone in on the problematic blood factor (i.e. repeatedly filtering out, separating, half the remaining types of stuff and retesting it's effect, etc). And quite possibly he (and Mella/Fluge) are already into something like this...
    It would be, and see Cort's last tweet (within "one year" hype):

    Depending on what kind of factor it turns out to be (if they are right), and Ron also conceded it could be something missing, at this point, then a metabolomics blood test, or even narrower metabolite test, might well be sufficient. But if it's an antibody, or illusive chemical signal, I don't now.
    I'm not so sure. no cell exists in isolation, the metabolic substrates are mostly shared via blood. And anything attacking/impacting the mitochondria directly might trigger it into some level of cell defense mode, certainly there is a shift away from aerobic mitochondrial OxPhos and that's quite likely to be self imposed to some extent.

    I think there was someone at the conference pushing for the word "inflammation" to be included in (a name for) CFS/ME? But not acute inflammation, presumably, some more subtle mix of altered cytokines, other signaling molecules, various metabolite balances and immune cell balances and activation states... And then (I'm not sure if there's) overlap with (blood borne) oxidative stress...?
    Maybe. Maybe the blooming and death debris of blood borne bacteria that aren't as rare as we thought, or LPS via translocation from gut.

    Immune cells are supposed to use their mitochondria very differently to most other cells, less so for energy, but don't know if that would make them less sensitive to reduced capacity. And other, as yet poorly understood signalling/sensing functions might still be in play...?

    My feeling is that the problem won't be infectious in that way, in that a particular blood component (e.g. plasma) might introduce a CFS-like blood borne stress on the recipient, but it would be transient, or immediately diluted away. Red blood cells alone are surely unlikely to cause additional issue (beyond the general "controversy" over efficacy of transfusions). I don't know if, don't think that, B-cells, for example, are transfused at all (the ones wiped out by Rituximab, with some success). Any that got through would presumably be mopped up by the recipient's immune system. I don't think you can transfer any known auto-immune diseases, for example...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  12. skipskip30

    skipskip30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    239
    Likes:
    1,427
    I will be asking my consultant about this when I next see him. I know very little about the antibodies as I was too young to really know what was happening when the first lot of tests where done.
     
  13. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes:
    3,307
    USA
    I really think is a joke, the Crawly club thread and this thread is like a twilight zone. How can things be sooooo crazy right now.

    Also don't you guys have in UK the consumer laws you know to lie about a product (when the data was analyzed was not 60% but 13?% or something like that for the MAgenta trial)
    Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread but as I saw it I was like this is insane!!!!
     
    medfeb likes this.
  14. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes:
    1,330
    New England
    There was a chart showing what is and is not in the plasma. No red or white blood cells I seem to recall. Does anyone remember? I think it said there are mainly proteins left in the plasma, so one of these?
     
  15. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes:
    5,023
    USA
    Blood is composed of formed elements (red cells, white cells, and platelets) and plasma, the yellow liquid part. Serum is similar to plasma, except that serum doesn't have any coagulation factors (various proteins) in it.

    So yes, there are no red or white blood cells in plasma (or serum).
     
    Sing likes this.
  16. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,251
    Likes:
    349
    following
     
  17. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

    Messages:
    805
    Likes:
    640
    If healthy cells put in ME serum poop out but not the opposite then I'd wager thet is a toxin in ME serum interfering with cell function. Either that or whatever caused ME that is in those cells takes longer than the time they observed to cause problems in the new host.

    I'd be a bit skeptical about the claim that it isn't transmissible. I developed ME after surgery with blood transfusions. It took 6 months. My ME doctor has seen it in other patients also. Of course it could be coincidental.

    Either way it's an interesting finding that needs to be followed up.
     
    picante and Sing like this.
  18. Strawberry

    Strawberry Senior Member

    Messages:
    778
    Likes:
    1,459
    Seattle, WA USA
    Ditto... 2 or 3 bags of it...
     
    picante likes this.
  19. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes:
    1,330
    New England
    Whatever is in the serum or missing from the serum. I tend to believe it would be easy to tease out the guilty party. How complex could serum be? But I gather it is. Still, Dr. Davis and colleagues seem to have tools at their disposal.
     
    BurnA and Theodore like this.
  20. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes:
    2,671
    Australia
    Extremely complex. It contains everything that is in blood except the formed elements (cells) and clotting factors. So all the proteins, lipids, sugars, hormones, cytokines, electrolytes, metabolites etc, etc
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page