The End ME/CFS Project: History Taking Root
The history books record that in the nineteenth century Louis Pasteur formulated a “germ theory” of microbes as the causative agents of disease, and thus revolutionized medicine. His findings, along with his contemporary, John Snow (who linked cholera to infected water supply),...
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Blood test showed B12 was normal, Folate was low

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by snowathlete, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I went to my GP yesterday and checked my records to see if i had any B12 tests done. I did last year, but was too spaced out to remember.
    It came in the 400s, so right in the middle of the 'normal' range.

    My folate, done the year before was low at 156 (normal being 187-645).

    As the methylation protocol has been turning my immune system back on i guess that means that for me, its mainly about folate, rather than B12?
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, snow.

    It's not possible to tell from a serum B12 measurement, because that will not pick up a functional B12 deficiency. A methylmalonate test is needed to do that, best done in urine, such as in the urine organic acids panels, such as the Genova Diagnostics metabolic analysis profile. Most of the B12 in the serum is normally bound to haptocorrin, rather than to transcobalamin, and it is only accessible by the liver, as part of the salvage and recycle pathway for B12.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Rich thats really helpful, thank you. I thought you or Fred might come back and say something like that.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Snowathlete,

    In a UK study on treating peripheral neuropathy in which subjects were selected by symptoms and the tests were run for comparison purposes, the average initial serum level was over 700pg/ml and the highest levels were over 1500pg/ml and they also responded. The dose was 1500mcg a day of methylb12. 63% of the responders would not have been allowed in the study if done by test results. Even 1500pg/ml doesn't indicate a person is symptom free of b12 deficiency symptoms nor does it predict non-responsiveness. In Japan you would be deficient as their low flag is at 550pg/ml, and they have 1/5 of the alzheimer's rate as the USA and UK. Further ressearch has found low CSF cobalamin levels irrespective of serum cobalamin levels in CFS, FMS, Parkinson's, ALS,MS, Alzheimer's, autism, SupraNuclearPalsy and who knows what else. The Japanese have demonstrated that 50mg doses can penetrate the CSF in people with some of these diseases and provide benefits.

    As so many studies have stated in the past, only a trial will determine if any given individual will respond to b12 therapy, none of the tests are predictive.
     
  5. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Very interesting thanks Fred. Especially about the Japanese range. It seems in the UK 'normal' ranges for just about everything are out of sync with the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately my new B12 i ordered from iHerb hasnt arrived yet, and the one I was using from Holistic Health ran out yesterday after just 5-6 weeks...
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi,

    No, the UK and USA standard based on decades of study of cyanocbl and Hydroxcbl are pretty standard becasue pernicious anemia shows up below that level and that was the definition for years. The Japanese standard is the highest in the world in the only country that uses methylb12 which affects the neurology perhaps 10,000 times as much as the cycbl and hycbl do, so the Japanese standard reflects that.
     
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Freddd, do you have any articles you can steer me to, about Japan's use of mb12+ Alzheimer's? I have a brother-in-law sliding into this illness. Unfortunately, he and my sister are both unbelievers in CFS and in "alternative" medical ideas in general. If I can forward her a study or two, she'll read them.

    Thanks,

    Madie
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Madie,

    I don't know of any Japanese studies on this, just the differences in rates came from one article (American I think) that also mentioned the differrnce in level. Japan is doing the high dose for various neurological diseases research. Another article, I don't know where, mentioned that approximately 40% of what is diagnosed as Alzheimer's demnetia is b12 deficiency demntia. Another article mentions incidenc of b12 deficiency over age 50 may be as high as 50% as 60 is approached. The only direct tests used small oral cyanocbl, folic acid and b6 to see if it made a difference in the course of the disease. it didn't. However, from what you know now there were a whole lot of problems with that, each of the 3 inactive pseudo viatamins instead of the 4 active ones and no cofactors. MY father and stepmother would not consider that "mere" vitamins could make any difference and refused to even do a trial.
     
  9. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Clin Ther. 1992 May-Jun;14(3):426-37.
    Treatment of Alzheimer-type dementia with intravenous mecobalamin.
    Ikeda T, Yamamoto K, Takahashi K, Kaku Y, Uchiyama M, Sugiyama K, Yamada M.
    Source

    Department of Neuropsychiatry, Yamaguchi University School of Medicine, Japan.
    Abstract

    The efficacy of intravenous mecobalamin in the treatment of Alzheimer-type dementia was evaluated in ten patients using several rating scales. Vitamin B12 levels and unsaturated binding capacities were also measured and compared to the evaluated intellectual function scores. Mecobalamin was shown to improve intellectual functions, such as memory, emotional functions, and communication with other people. Improvements in cognitive functions were relatively constant when the vitamin B12 levels in the cerebrospinal fluid were high. Improvements in communication functions were seen when a certain level of vitamin B12 was maintained for a longer period. There were no side effects attributable to mecobalamin. We conclude that mecobalamin is a safe and effective treatment for psychiatric disorders in patients with Alzheimer-type dementia.

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1638584
     
  10. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Thank you both. If anybody finds more information, or if there are any web groups discussing this that I could take a look at, I'm already very grateful for your help.

    Madie
     
  11. Patrick*

    Patrick* Formerly PWCalvin

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    Rich,

    Does testing B12 serum tell us anything relevant to ME/CFS? I ask because I was considering asking my doctor to check that box on my next lab slip.

    What about "FOLATE RBC, LAV, RM TEMP"?

    PWCalvin
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PWCalvin,

    A serum b12 tests will tell you if you are in serious trouble but then any level under 2000 or so can can have a hundred ot 200 b12 defieicny symptoms so it isn't rally very worrthwhile. Also it tells you nothing about cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin levels which can be low even if the body is high. I keep my serum level around 200,000pg/ml so that it gets into my CSF/CNS enough to keep the Subacute combined degeneration from progressing. Studies have show that people with CFS, FMS, ALS, MS, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, autism, SupraNuclearPalsy have low CSF/CNS cobalamin for any normal range of serum level cobalamin. The ONLY defibitive test of if active b12 can benefit you is to do a trial, and so mb12/adb12/metafolin and cofactors can tell you if it will be effective. Also by my own tests, use the symptoms list on the active b12 protocol thread and if you have a lot of those across the categories and then try a 5 star mb12 and adb12, about 85% if thgose whould respond with all the cofactors will respond witin 2 hours.
     

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