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Bleeding from Amoxicilin: Vit K Deficiency?

Discussion in 'General Symptoms' started by GypsyA, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    I've had issues with low blood clotting in the past, especially when I was a teenager/young adult. It hasn't happened to me in a very long time, until recently. I was given Amoxicillin for strep, but I stopped taking it after about 4 days because I was having side effects: peripheral neuropathy, increased tinnitus, clotting issues.

    I did a bit of research and I'm glad I stopped taking it (I'm now taking Cephalexin and hoping for the best). The bleeding issue is continuing, and I believe it's because Amoxicillin messes with Vit K in the stomach.

    Does anyone know a way to quickly infuse the body with Vit K, naturally, that's also vegan? I've been eating lots of dark greens, but so far no clotting (my period is lasting too long and I already am a life-long iron deficient person).

    I'm afraid to take supplements for Vit K, because I'm so sensitive to everything and end up with more issues. :-/
     
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    There are different types of Vitamin K. I have recently ordered some K2 supplement in the hope that it helps, but I'm going to take about a seventh, as I tend to be very sensitive to some things, and have been very weird apparently in response to some sauerkraut, of which I have thrown away what's left, partly because it's been open for a while! (That contains Vitamin K2.)
     
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  3. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I'd be checking with your doctor or pharmacist.
     
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  4. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    Ugh...I never liked sauerkraut. Maybe now that I'm deficient in Vit K, however, my body will like it? I'll give it a try...my husband will eat it if I still don't like it. :p
    Thanks!
     
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  5. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    I think the Cephalexin I'm taking, now, in place of the Amoxicillin, is also causing my blood to be too thin. :-(

    As for seeing a doctor, they'll do all kinds of tests, charge more money, and throw a bunch of other medicine at me to "fix" the problem that has resulted from the first sets of antibiotics they prescribed for strep throat. Then that new medicine will result in more issues. I don't trust doctors and I've seen them more in the past two months than I have in the past few years. I definitely need to get rid of the strep and the only way I know that's ever worked in the past is antibiotics. My daughter and I have tried all the natural "cures" for strep and they've never worked for us.

    Looks like I'm on an all-green diet (with lemon to help increase iron), along with my normal orange/banana smoothie in the morning. I'm headed on vacation early on the 10th, so I need to get this figured out before then.

    I'm looking forward to maybe some more insight or thoughts on how to naturally increase the Vitamin K to help my blood clot better.

    Thanks!
     
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  6. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    I think it is K1 that is needed for clotting: it is the one given to babies at birth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytomenadione

    I would suggest parsley, amaranth or collards as they are high in k1 http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-011104000000000000000-w.html

    and high in calcium http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-011118000000000000000-w.html

    from glancing over this wikipedia article you would seem to need calcium, phospholipids and k1
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coagulation

    So maybe a parsley and lecithin and coconut cream smoothy or some such thing or a coconut based soup with lots of cooked greens, blended to maximise absorption, and then mixed with a tablespoon of lecithin granules.
     
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  7. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    Thanks, Richard7. That's what I'm going to make something with all those ingredients right now...I have all but the lecithin on hand. Sounds yummy, too! :)
     
  8. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    choline may be a reasonable proxy for lecithin http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-012144000000000000000-w.html

    so sunflower seeds, pistachios, pepitas etc.

    I forgot to mention that another advantage of the lecithin is that it can work a bit like bile in helping you absorb the fats.

    I found that I needed to take betaine HCL, ox bile and strong digestive enzymes (3 x creon 25,000 per meal) to get my digestion right.
     
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  9. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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  10. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    Okay, awesome, Richard7! Thanks so much! I have mung beans that I'll cook up. I think I might have some pepitas, but if not, I'll pick some up tomorrow. The soup is smelling great! I blended kale and parsley, and that liquid is cooking with two carrots, half head of cabbage, a zucchini, red pepper, snow peas, 3/4 of a cauliflower head, a few greens from scallions, about a tablespoon of coconut oil, a tablespoon of Thai yellow curry paste, and about a cup of pure coconut milk. It looks like green curry from the blended greens. :-D

    I might have to pick up a Vit K supplement before heading on vacation, just in case the bleeding isn't stopping and it becomes worrisome. Any recommendation for a Vit K supplement that's okay for a vegetarian and also doesn't cause many side effects/issues?
     
  11. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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  12. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    I've been reading up more on Vit K, thinking the K2 might also be good for me to consider after you mentioned taking it for teeth issues, Richard7. Many years ago I noticed my teeth weren't white all the way to the tips...like they were becoming translucent. As a kid I had *many* cavities (drilled and filled with amalgam, but I had that all removed about two years ago). Because I always wanted nice teeth, I began brushing a lot as a young adult (3-5x/day). I don't really get a lot of cavities, now, but my teeth haven't been white all the way to the tips since I was young. I get tonsil stones sometimes, which are a form of calcium deposits in soft tissue...which might be related to K2 and D3 deficiency, also. Anyway, thanks for mentioning it!
     
  13. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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  14. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    Great! Thanks for the links! Are you a raw foodie? I was 100% raw for many years, felt the best I ever did in my entire life. Then I get bit by a tick and developed Lyme (CDC defined with the Lyme bands showing), which altered my digestion (among other things), and I could no longer digest my beloved fresh/raw veggies/fruits anymore. :-( I also developed SIBO. Some of the lyme caused neurological issues, which I still sometimes struggle with, and my attention span has changed. Actually, everything has changed. :-( I'm not as sharp/clever as I was all my life and it's much more difficult for me when I do research to keep it all organized and easily accessible in my brain, which is very scary at times (also frustrating and depressing). Anyway, I'll get it figured out one day...I know genetics has a lot to do with it, too. Lots of puzzle pieces to figure out.

    My husband is currently high-raw fruitarian, but I get too spaced out with mostly fruit. Doug Graham (fruitarian) told me it's from fats, but even when I cut out fats the fruits are still keeping me too spaced out. Veggies help me stay grounded, but only if they're cooked. :-(
     
  15. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    No, I am an omnivore.

    Indeed, when my CFS was at its worst and I my mind hardly worked at all, I had a relatively good day where I went (by car) down to some farmer's markets where a woman selling pastured pork and beef talked about some of these things and directed me to the Weston A Price Foundation website.

    I cannot remember if it was when I was looking for confirmation that I found Denise Minger or if she was linked to in the WAPF article. Anyway I bookmarked it and next time my brain was kind of working, a month or so later, I read her articles and kind of understood them.

    And I just gradually worked up from there, understanding and doing what I could.

    I don't think I could do mostly fruit. Indeed I saw a video a while back in which it is argued that one should limit fructose to about 25g/day to reduce inflammation. I am afraid I cannot remember why.

    And I love some veges raw or barely cooked and others cooked or fermented.

    But no: true omnivore here seaweed, nuts, seeds, fruits, legumes, leaves, stems, roots, tubers, and other things I guess you do not want to hear about.

    But I could certainly understand the quantities in your soup. I tried the Wahls diet for a while and found the quantities of veggies to be good. And before I got CFS I always started by seeing which vegetables looked best/were at the best price before planning the budget and what I was going to eat.
     
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  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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  17. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    True @MeSci but the clinical dose for women with osteoperosis is 45mg/day I have gone this high without any obvious ill effects - indeed it was associated with bits of calculus falling off my teeth and a short term improvement in the smoothness of the enamel.

    Its just very expensive at that level, so I usually have 15mg.

    there is a long thread on this http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/has-vitamin-k-2-mk-4-or-mk7-helped-you.15605/

    Secondly the daily values are perhaps a bit of a joke. They are of course not set based on requirements for optimal health or with any idea of what normal vitamin k consumption is. If you go looking into vitamin K research you will find that they are still trying to get a handle on what the content is in foods that people commonly eat.

    if you look at standard USDA tables, you will find that for most foods they have only tested for vitamin k1. So natto which is often described as the best natural source of vitamin k2 at about 1mg/100g, and has been known to be a rich source for bout 30yrs, is rated at 23mcg/100g.

    In 2013 Manoury et al tested 60 odd forms of fermented european dairy and found the highest had about 1.1mg/100g, the cheddars ranged from 50mcg/100g to 430, caerphilly was 419, cheshire 315, and two samples twarog were about 500mcg/100g. The USDA has no figures for caerphilly or twarog, and only records 2.8mcg/100 cheddar and did not measure the vitamin k content of cheshire.

    This abstract claims measuements of 11-534mcg/100g in samples of fresh and processed pork in the USA https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27191033

    And of course in the k1 that the USDA does measure leaves greens the clear winners on their tables with about 500mcg/100g.

    If you had a spinach or chard and twarog pie, or a big bowl salad with plenty of leafy greens and some cheddar, or natto and mustard greens, or whatever is the richest kind of pork with collard greens you could easily have a 2 or 3mgs of vitamin k in a pretty normal day.
     
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  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I've read a lot of the thread you link to, and have marked it for reference.

    The supplement I've ordered is K2 Menaquinone-7, for which the recommendations seem quite low - maybe they're more for Mk-4? I can't remember.

    I seem to be very sensitive to everything, and am going to start really low. Women also seem to generally need a lot less of some supplements than men. As @GypsyA is sensitive to things, maybe she should proceed with caution.
     
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  19. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    True @MeSci

    And if small amounts work and they are cheaper that can be a good thing too.

    As I understand it menaquinone 7 and the other long chain menaquinones have a longer half life in the blood, and it is thought that you therefore need less.

    But those values for cheese and natto are all or mostly long chain menaquinones (mk6-10) and higher than what is found in the supplements.

    I noticed something similar when looking at EGCG and isoflavones. The EGCG tablets set a dose that is claimed to be equivalent to 2 or 3 cups of green tea a day, but could be closer to 1 cup according to to the USDA flavanoid database. The soy isoflavones taken at the recommended dose were equal to 1 cup soy milk a day (according to the label.
     
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  20. GypsyA

    GypsyA

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    I'm feeling a lot better today...continuing with lots of greens and doing well.

    After vacation I'm going to sample some K2 (low dose, thanks MeSci for looking out for me!), because all the links you've shared, Richard7, make it seem like I could probably benefit from at least trying it.

    The "Cooling inflammation from the inside-out" video was great. I think some of the best healing comes when we go to the root/deepest cause of issues and work out way out from there. I didn't understand everything being shared, but I'll watch it again when my mind is less fuzzy. Thanks!
     

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