Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Bdeep86, Apr 15, 2013.
Has anyone here ever used a Biopterin supplement or that homeopathic BH4 supplement?
I have been wondering about this too.
A woman on the MTHFRdiscussions Yahoo group said that biopterin really helps both her and her husband with pain.
These are the 3 sources mentioned:
It seems that the "homeopathic" BH4 supplement is not actually homeopathic, it's just labeled as such for legal reasons. I think it's the same as the other biopterin products.
I see thanks for that. I have found one that is just biopterin with tyrosine, not sure how good it is.
Has anyone compared biopterin vs BH4 supplements? While related the biopterin is two steps removed. BH2 is the one that is part of recycling to make BH4. There is a key step in converting biopterin to BH2 and then onto BH4. I would be interested if anyone has any testimonials for either.
Yeah I guess this is the question I was meaning to ask.
I tried the Norival tetrahydrobiopterin / tyrosine supplement from iherb. It tended to make me a little agitated, which i guess is the tyrosine element.
Hard to find a single biopterin supplement. You could just raise your methylfolate intake which apparently increases biopterin.
Using BH4 + lithium. helps with the cognitive stuff.....tetrahydrobiopterin to be clear.
I have tried the BH4 from heartfixer.com...it doesn't do anything detectable for me, but I keep it in my freezer because it will help make urea should I have kidney issues. I have MTHFR 1298AC (hetero) but my father was homozygous for that and it killed him. You need BH4 to make urea or you go on dialysis and that causes heart disease. A metametrix test showed no detectable biopterin in my father 2 days before his fatal heart attack.
I have a problem with severely lowered GFR (kidney filtration rate) in winter due to winter causes me to go hypothyroid. You can look it up...hypothyroid causes lowered GFR, which goes back to normal when the thyrodi is corrected (as mine does when winter is over and the air contains humidity again). I am trying to solve this now, only found this out this year. I tried BH4 100mg (4 pills from heartfixer) but it did not help the water retention and nocturnal peeing. And fyi now that it is spring I took a BUN and creatinine and they are normal. In the winter Iw as so sick with allergies I didn't have half a brain to work with to track anything down...
Where are the heartfixer ones? I thought the "homeopathic" were 2.5 mg. Can you clarify?
OMG! Ecological Formulas. My eyesight isn't so good - I thought they were 25mg. God it should be ILLEGAL for Big Pharma to force the supplements company to lower their dose to uselessness! They were producing this before any patent was issued to the company that makes the drug kuvan, which is completely unaffordable! I need to get that biopterin test then and see how I am doing. Sorry if I got you excited about a brand with a reasonable dose...
But if as I replied in the other thread where you posted recently if you are getting positive responses from tyrosine your bh4 levels may be doing fine. On the other hand the most common reason for low biopterin is not genetics but high inflammation due to a neopterin shunt.
I have higher inflammation that I used to (used to not have any). I combat it with high antioxidants and it really tamps it down. Not 100%, but 90% anyway. I know that oxidants also dysregulate the methyl cycle so I think my antioxidants are saving me in many ways.
However, I think my main BH4 benefit comes from hormone replacement. I am pretty sure I would be diabetic by now like the rest of my Dad's sie of the family were it not for DHEA. I think BH4 relates to diabetes somehow but I am not sure how yet. So count it as intuition (no proof).
Antioxidants are good on many front but if they are controlling your inflammation then the good news is you are likey more afflicted with passive inflammation and free radicals (peroxides, superoxides, etc.). I say this is a good thing since the active types of inflammation from autoimmune diseases or chronic infections are only marginally affected by antioxidants.
BH4 has more to do with neurotransmitters, urea cycle and again anti-inflammatory action through its cooperation with adb12. Neurotransmitters are of course powerful things. Tricky since we need catecholamines to feel good, but if an active source of inflammation exists, higher NE levels will feed the flames resulting in more inflammation. This is the common trap for some of us when we increase methylation cycle flux and is imo one of the main reasons why those who do NOT have active inflammation sources wonder and bemuse why the rest of us are such wimps about not being able to go higher on methylfolate, etc.
DHEA does a lot of good things. Not sure about any diabetes direct link. However, if you supplement DHEA, then your pregnenolone will shunt over to progesterone more, so by taking DHEA you are actually affecting multiple steroid hormones.
My only suggestion was if the tyrosine means you feel better and feel like you have more dopamine (more joie de vive, more passion, more desire to do thing, happier) then your tyrosine is converting efficiently which means you must have BH4 since it the main rate limiting cofactor in the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme reaction to eventually makes dopamine. This is good news since then any passive inflammation you have must be well controlled by your antioxidants. Things like DHEA and progesterone (indirectly raised via DHEA suppelementation) and the resultant testosterone are all anti-inflammatory as well. Nowhere in the same league as cortisol but still beneficial in reducing inflammation nonetheless.
Let me turn this around as a question. Did taking BH4 supplements have much benefit for you and if so in what way?
No, sorry. Taking BH4 had no benefit for me that I could detect. Now I know I was taking a dose so low I would never have detected any result anyway. I have high blood pressure and have a hard time staying ahead of water retention issues that accrue due to that...I tried BH4 to see if it would help me pee it out, but it did not. I cannot sluff off my regimen and just - say - take the DHEA and have my blood pressure correct due to water retention. I tried the BH4 for slowed GFR that occurred during allergy season this winter (because allergies took out my thyroid which slows GFR) and it did not work for that either - but a measly 10g...who knows anyway?
The tie to diabetes is low testosterone is linked to diabetes in men. Which says to me diabetes is what happens with certain genes when hormonal genetic regulation ends. DHEA makes all the hormones I need to avoid diabetes. Diabetes causes low BH4. I want to say it's the other way round, but the only studies I found say the link is FROM diabetes TO low BH4.
"joie de vive" is not concrete enough for me. When I take tyrosine - at least initially - it makes my brain glow. For some reason I have trouble maintaining dopamine content (2 neurological tests show this!) despite being COMT +/+. Whenever I take a cholinergic substance it makes my brain glow. So tyrosine does it. High dose choline does it. High dose omega-3 does it (I guess the reason may be it helps me get better use of the dopamine I've got). And my thyroid glandular does it because it is a total H-P-A mix of glandulars. However I don't get that glow just from tyrosine anymore ever since allergy season in the fall. idk if it's because dopamine production also needs either zinc or thyroid hormone (both of which I have trouble with during allergy season) or if it's because people say the brain gets used to the cholinergic stimulation. Still I agree that the glow means BH4 levels are ok. If I could rely on getting a brain glow to tell me I have enough BH4 and tyrosine etc, I would be happy, but because it is reputed the brain gets used to this I can't tell if I am getting enough regularly or just last year when I started. And I have a real concern as I have observed my allergies taking down so many aspects of my health.
I hate being mortal, don't you? Let's run away and be aliens.
What tests were run to show low dopamine? I had a neurologist tell me based on some simple neurological test I had PD which turned out to be hogwash. If the tyrosine is causing brain glow then I am not aware of any other mechanism than DA production which needs bh4. So not sure what else to say. Increased inflammation during allergy season will make neopterin rise thereby slowing production of bh4.
Also there is a correlation between sex hormones and diabetes but the association is not strong and it is low testosterone is absolutely NOT causative of diabetes. Some researchers floated hormonal causes years ago and they ended up being debunked completely. Correlation is causation. Dhea is very protective of many things and is an important element. Women benefit also due to an indirect peogesterone shunt. Men due improved testosterone to estradiol ratio. I take 150 mg myself a day with my doctor's blessing. But dhea while it may provide the missing sex hormones is not in the same class as the big hormones like cortisol, thyroid, and aldosterone. For some if us those big three have mammoth implications.
In my own case treating my autoimmune disease head on and lowering inflammation has massively reduced my allergies. Going from I could not walk outside with pollen and can't step into a drugstore without the chemicals and fragrances crushing me. Now at worst I take a 12 hour allegra at night during the spring.
Heh I don't mind the mortal part if life would quit piling on my health
I have a hard time deciphering the language in these studies so I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion or not.
Interactions of peroxynitrite, tetrahydrobiopterin, ascorbic acid, and thiols: implications for uncoupling endothelial nitric-oxide synthase.
Tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) serves as a critical co-factor for the endothelial nitric-oxide synthase (eNOS). A deficiency of BH4 results in eNOS uncoupling, which is associated with increased superoxide and decreased NO* production. BH4 has been suggested to be a target for oxidation by peroxynitrite (ONOO-), and ascorbate has been shown to preserve BH4 levels and enhance endothelial NO* production; however, the mechanisms underlying these processes remain poorly defined. To gain further insight into these interactions, the reaction of ONOO- with BH4 was studied using electron spin resonance and the spin probe 1-hydroxy-3-carboxy-2,2,5-tetramethyl-pyrrolidine. ONOO- reacted with BH4 6-10 times faster than with ascorbate or thiols. The immediate product of the reaction between ONOO- and BH4 was the trihydrobiopterin radical (BH3.), which was reduced back to BH4 by ascorbate, whereas thiols were not efficient in recycling of BH4. Uncoupling of eNOS caused by peroxynitrite was investigated in cultured bovine aortic endothelial cells (BAECs) by measuring superoxide and NO* using spin probe 1-hydroxy-3-methoxycarbonyl-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-pyrrolidine and the NO*-spin trap iron-diethyldithiocarbamate. Bolus ONOO-, the ONOO- donor 3-morpholinosydnonimine, and an inhibitor of BH4 synthesis (2,4-diamino-6-hydroxypyrimidine) uncoupled eNOS, increasing superoxide and decreasing NO* production. Exogenous BH4 supplementation restored endothelial NO* production. Treatment of BAECs with both BH4 and ascorbate prior to ONOO- prevented uncoupling of eNOS by ONOO-. This study demonstrates that endothelial BH4 is a crucial target for oxidation by ONOO- and that the BH4 reaction rate constant exceeds those of thiols or ascorbate. We confirmed that ONOO- uncouples eNOS by oxidation of tetrahydrobiopterin and that ascorbate does not fully protect BH4 from oxidation but recycles BH3. radical back to BH4.
I am not sure I caught all the nuances of the above note and I don't have the time now to ponder it...for instance r u saying you don't know that BH4 is needed for the urea cycle? And yes if it causes brain glow it seems to me to be that that is dopinergic stimulation, but I have gotten it from tyrosine, high dose omega-3, and / or high dose choline. I do NOT reliably get it from tyrosine. I know nothing about the idea that your body gets used to it. I only know that sometimes I get the glow and sometimes I don't. I will dutifully re-look up the connection between hormones and diabetes. I feel very strongly that you are wrong and there is a connection. However I would never suggest that hormones could override actual nutritional deficiencies in trace minerals such as chromium, vanadyl sulfate, and gamma - tocopherol.
That is really interesting regarding autoimmune and anti-inflammatories not helping. I have been experiencing arthritis, which is auto-immune against your cartilage and I kept trying different and higher doses of anti-oxidants without much success. But now I read from Life Extension that chicken soup has been PROVEN to work because it delivers undenatured collagen, which is ow sold via a pill called UC-II, and when taken orally, it desensitizes your immune system to bits of cartilage that it has been seeing as an allergen. (Takes 90 days to work). They say the delivery method of ingestion is what does the trick. And that got me to thinking about how I am allergic to cats and yet I have 6 of them and they do not bother me and WHY THAT MIGHT BE. I sleep with them - am I ingesting bits of their fur? Yuck! And it makes me recall that the Indians were immune to poison ivy and even ATE IT. (Which is probably why they were immune).
However Allergra does not work for my allergies, which are the worst my allergist has ever seen. I know of no drug that does work for me and I have tried many.
But SPIRULINA seems to be doing a pretty decent job for me right now and the side benefit is that it was tested to work on arthritis in rats and to also lower cholesterol., SO over time it may be a 3-fer! The studies indicate 2g works over a period of 3 months. I cannot say regarding that low dose. I am taking 10.5 g which works in 2 days. idk if I can take less but I sure can't wait 3 months. Nothing that I know of works for the eyes. Any ideas on that?
And meanwhile, I wonder what else we can eat in minute quantities to stop our immune systems from freaking out?
Thanks, Lotus. It is relevant. I knew this. What I don't know is something cheap and effective against ONOO. Rand56 is also aware that ONOO destroys BH4 and is looking for a cheap way to nuke ONOO himself. You know Martin Pall has written a lot about ONOO and about a bazillion supplements needed to counteract it. We need something less that works.
I had never ending allergies ......every animal known to man, some grasses and trees Cats were the worst although I too live with cats I noticed I did adjust somewhat to my own cats except when the scratched me or I rubbed my eyes after petting them and then I got massive itching and welts. Started LDN a little over 2 yrs ago and within 4 mos no more allergies.
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