New era for ME/CFS research as top cytokine study attracts media headlines
The immune systems of patients who have recently developed ME/CFS look markedly different from those who have been ill for much longer, according to a major new study from Drs. Ian Lipkin and Mady Hornig at Columbia University. This shift in immune function hadn’t been seen before.
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Biofilm, antivirals, antibiotics, antifungals: the missing link in treatment?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by xrunner, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I was aware that certain bacteria use biofilm as one of their many strategies to evade immune and antibiotics attack. From personal experience, I was aware of the importance of addressing biofilm when on antibiotics. Antibiotics stopped working for me years ago and so did my recovery. That was until I started tackling biofilm and from there I never looked back. I would have never recovered without that change in therapy.

    However, it was only recently that I became aware that biofilm may be an issue with viruses, yeast/candida and possibly parasites.

    Here's an article on a recently discovered biofilm forming retrovirus.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100205115946.htm

    And a couple of articles I read about yeast and biofilm
    http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/short/41/7/2961
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19898545

    There are plenty of scientific articles on bacterial biofilm and chronic infections.

    Biofilm is known to make microbes resistant to therapy. So I wondered whether biofilm may also be an issue where response to treatment is poor or when people need to make chronic use of anti-virals or anti-fungals in order to feel better. Or put it another way, would known anti-biofilm agents (that work against bacterial biofilm) make anti-virals and anti-fungals drugs more effective?
     
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  2. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    What did you do?

    Madie
     
  3. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Madie,
    I started experimenting with anti-biofilm supplements.
     
  4. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    What are such anti-biofilm supplements?
     
  5. DANEL

    DANEL

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    I would be so interested as well. i am fighting the bac-bioflim from living in a moldy house, have high mercury, trying to chelate and have the viruses from the CFS, just a mess. and i believe you are right. if i an get the biofilm addressed i wonder if the anti-viral and fungals would work better and than chelating this mercury would help in my recovery.

    when you are doing the bac-biofilm supplements are you also, at the same time doing the virals and fungals?

    do you do supplements and HERBS and are you on any meds, valcyte etc for virus?

    thanks so much for your help.







     
  6. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Madie,
    There are lots of stuff claimed to be effective against biofilm, if you just google Lyme+biofilm you'll see how many supplements are quoted there (very popular in the Lyme community). However not many studies on the topic. It seems to me the research into anti-biofilm agents is still in its infancy.
    From what I understand (I'm not a scientist) there are different types of anti-biofilm agents:

    OTC enzymes, like lumbrokinase, nattokinase, serrapeptase etc;
    Heavy metal chelators: edta, dmsa the ones I read about;
    Both enzymes and chelators appear to dissolve the jelly-like stuff that makes up biofilm.
    Lactoferrin, I read acts instead as a biofilm inhibitor rather than as something that dissolves it;
    There are new drugs, still in experimental stage I believe, called Phage lytic enzymes.
    There is also an interesting small study about the use of liposomal antibiotics as a way to deliver antibiotics through the biofilm defenses.

    I only have experience with OTC enzymes and my favourite there is lumbrokinase, but other people have found other enzymes effective.
    I also have had good results by taking phosphatidylcholine with antibiotics, an experience which would appear consistent with the findings on liposomal antibiotics.

    Danel,
    I never had a huge problem with mercury (based on tests) although I have many amalgam fillings and I'm in the process of replacing the lot. I'm following the Cutler protocol for that.
    I had some candida issues and had high titres for a couple of viruses i.e. CMV and coxsachie but I never took anti-virals nor anti-fungals. I also had loads of metabolic stuff that wasn't working. I used to take loads of supplements and herbs but I found none was really helping with the underlying causes of my illness.
    Over the last couple of years my treatment has been based around antibiotics and anti-biofilm supplements, although I found a short trial of anti-parasitic Ivermectin, helpful. All my health parameters have normalised as a result of this treatment, including candida and viral titres.
    However, I believe that in my case the illness drivers were Borrelia and Bartonella and possibly some parasites (but who knows) and so getting those under control most likely helped my immune system getting back to functioning more normally and then take care of the other stuff as well (viruses, candida etc).

    The only herbs I take at present are Japanese Knotweed (aka resveratrol) and Milk thistle. The only supplements I take are a fully reacted multi-mineral and probiotics. During antibiotic cycles, I take more probiotics, Bolouke (lumbrokinase) and phosphatidylcholine.
    Hope this helps.

    All the best
     
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  7. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    While researching whether Vitamin C can dissolve biofilms, I ran across a reference about a flavonoid called phloretin. Apparently very abundant in apples and supposedly excellent for dissolving biofilms. [Taking on Pathogenic Biofilms: An Apple a Day?] --- I notice you say you've recovered at the time you started this thread in 2011. Is that still the case? If so, congratulations to you! --- BTW, would you know whether Vitamin C can dissolve biofilms? If I get a clear answer, I'll post it back here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
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  8. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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  9. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    @Little Bluestem
    I'm doing fine and I feel blessed. I have not had any treatment since May/June (that is none of the stuff we usually refer to when we think of treatments) but I have improved further the last couple of months. I also keep watching my diet and exercising. For the time being this illness remains a mystery.

    @Wayne
    I just looked at my old post and with hindsight I'm not sure whether those enzymes or any other supplement actually works against biofilm. I know they help, lumbro was certainly the one that helped the most in my case, but I'm not sure they help by attacking biofilm or in another manner. That's with the benefit of hindsight.
    I do not know about Vitamin C but I personally doubt because I took tons of it when I was very ill and it certainly helped with some symptoms but not in a critical way.
    I must add that since I wrote that a couple of other things helped substantially and that was mercury and lead chelation (Cutler) although I did relatively few rounds, GcMaf/Maf314 and Kib500. Each contributed clear improvements.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @xrunner
    You may want to investigate the bioelectric effect.

    The bioelectric effect is a phenomenon in which the potency of antibiotics against bacteria hiding in biofilms is increased by an amazing 100 million times when an electric current is passed through the infected region.

    This paper is of interest:

    Bacterial biofilms and the bioelectric effect

    Here you see that a current of just 1 mA caused an incredible 8 log increase in the killing of bacteria. Note that 8 log = 100,000,000 = 100 million.

    1 mA is quite a small current. Those TENS units that you can buy cheaply in pharmacies use a higher current than that (TENS units deliver a controllable electric current in the range of 1 to 80 mA). TENS units come with two or more stick-on electrode pads that you stick on your skin, and a current runs through your body between the two electrodes.

    This study:

    Prevention and control of bacterial infections associated with medical devices

    found that an electric current density of 15 microamps per square centimeter was necessary to dramatically enhance the killing of biofilm bacteria by antibiotics.
     
  11. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    @Hip, thanks for those links, very interesting I had never heard of that before.
    I'm not sure though how you would do that in practice i.e. producing that effect inside our bodies rather than on medical devices or prosthetics.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @xrunner

    I performed some preliminary experiments running an electric current through my body and intestinal area, after taking some antibiotics, in order to kill biofilm bacteria in my body by means of the bioelectric effect.

    To do this, I simply took a large 12 volt rechargeable battery, and placed a wire from the positive terminal of the battery in the water at on end of my filled bath tub, and placed a wire from the negative terminal of the battery in the water at the opposite end of my bath. This causes an electric current to flow along the length of the bath, running through the bath water between the two wires. You can wire in a 12 volt light bulb in series, and this light bulb will glow dimly when the wires are placed in the bath water, indicating that a current is flowing within the water (this bulb also provides protection against short circuit, should the two wires inadvertently touch).

    Then when you lie in the bath youself, the electric current also passes through your body (your body being largely water).

    Needless to say, never use anything connected to the mains power supply to do this: just use low voltage batteries.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
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  13. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    @Hip Bath houses in Japan often feature tubs with low level electric currents through them.

    Interesting to see if this helps you, keep us posted!
     
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  14. bootsydan

    bootsydan

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    @ Hip

    One year on, has this helped?
     
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have not got around to repeating the "electric current through my bath water" experiments of biofilm destruction. It's something I need to do.

    I also realize that you probably want to use a bactericidal antibiotic for this, rather than a bacteriostatic antibiotic.

    Bacteriostatic antibiotics work by limiting the growth of bacteria, which then gives the immune system a chance to kill them. But for bacteria that are hiding inside a biofilm, the immune system is not really able to reach them anyway. So these bacteriostatic antibiotics I think will have little effect. I think they will likely just temporarily slow down the bacteria's growth and metabolism.

    However, a bactericidal antibiotic in combination with the electric current should directly kill the bacteria hiding inside the biofilm.



    It was also interesting that the electric current would directly improve my ME/CFS: on days when I took one of these electric current baths (in which I would pass the electric current through my body for around 60 minutes), I found that I had noticeably less fatigue, and would not need to take the normal 1 or 2 hour nap I often take during the day.


    If anyone wants to try one of these electric current baths, a 9 volt PP3 battery would be fine as a power source.

    This type of electrotherapy, in which you pass an electric current through your body while bathing, is called a "galvanic bath".
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
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  16. bootsydan

    bootsydan

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    @Hip

    Thanks mate, this is definitely on my list of things to do in the near future.
     
  17. South

    South Senior Member

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    @Hip I wonder if another way to have this effect is to use a "zapper" (made famous by a woman 20 years ago named Hulda Clark). Whether Clark's idea in general about health are correct or not (she has some extreme views), the little handheld devices called zappers are a way to deliver an electric current more conveniently through the body.

    "zappers" are sold by many competing small companies online. They are battery operated, and don't require a bathtub. They have two handhold metal bars connected by electric cords to the small battery pack.
     
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  18. melamine

    melamine Senior Member

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  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    A "zapper" is basically just a solenoid (coil of wire) connected to a square wave generator, in order to create an oscillating magnetic field around the solenoid. An oscillating magnetic field will induce an electric current to flow in any electrically conducting material (and body tissue is a reasonably good conducting material).

    So a zapper will produce some electric current flow in the body, and this electric current may then kill bacteria hiding in biofilms via the bioelectric effect. Of course you need to take antibiotics at the same time, as the bioelectric effect is the massive amplification (via the electric current) of the antibacterial effects of antibiotic drugs against bacteria hiding in biofilms (so the bioelectric effect won't work at all without antibiotics).

    However, you would have to perform a few calculations to work out how strong the electric current induced by a zapper is (and I am too brain fogged to do maths on most days!). But even assuming the electric current created by the zapper was strong enough to cause the bioelectric effect killing of bacteria, the problem is that a magnetic field has a very short range, so you would only be treating the area immediately next to the zapper solenoid.

    So I think the galvanic bath method would be much better for treating the whole body.



    The great advantage of doing it in a bath is that you can pass a reasonably strong electric current, but you don't risk any local skin irritation, as you would if you used TENS machine-type electrode pads attached to the body. Since water conducts, it evenly distributes the electric current across all you skin, so that you don't get any local hotspots of high electric current on the skin, as you may do if you used electrode pad contacts.

    Also, immersion into water wets the skin, and makes its much easier for an electric current to pass through you skin. Unlike the interior body tissues, the skin is normally a bad conductor of electricity. But when wet, the skin's ability to conduct electricity dramatically improves.


    All I did to create a galvanic bath was place a 2 foot length of bare electric wire in the water across one end of my bath, and another 2 foot of wire at the opposite end. These lengths of wire were placed parallel to the ends of the bath.

    When I connected a strong 12 volt battery to these two lengths of wire, I measured an electric current of around 30 milliamps flowing though the bath water (this is in a bath filled to around 18 cm high with bath water).

    Once you lie in that bath, this same electric current is going to flow through your entire body as well (because body tissues are very similar to water in their ability to conduct electricity).


    By my calculation, assuming a bath filled around 18 cm high with water, and width of 45 cm, this will give you an electric current of around 37 microamps flowing through each square cm of bathwater, and similarly for each square cm of your body tissue.

    This 37 microamps per square cm is more than enough to create the bioelectric effect: for the bioelectric effect to work, you need an electric current of at least 15 microamps per square centimeter, according to the study I quote in a post above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  20. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    so is serrapeptase and natto not worth buying, and lumbrokinase is better for biofilms and asthma/COPD? how does phosphitadylcholine work synergistically with antibiotics? I am looking into trying these bioelectric low voltage experiments. nitroxoline is also supposed to be a biofilm buster.
    I've tried high doses of oral EDTA but that didn't seem to help that much, I think I may have a lung biofilm with the calcified granuloma in my lower right lobe. One knowledgeable person advised me that when you have biofilm encapsulation you need IV antibiotics to treat the infection

    All I had was a double D 1.5V battery and it didn't seem to do much with the bathwater, it wouldn't even light a lightbulb
    but I was lucky I went to the nasty neurologist the one who wouldn't even treat my blindness and she did a nerve conduction test so I got some electricity through my body while taking tinidazole. But this study isn't directly applicable, it did not involve patients and it's unclear if a galvanic bath would actually reach a biofilm
    I am just going to try isoniazid and rifampicin and try that instead for my broken lungs

    I really wouldn't recommend this but there is no benefit from galvanic baths?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015

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