1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Knitting Equals Pleasure, Despite ME/CFS
Jody Smith loves knitting. Again. She thought her days of knitting and purling were long over but ... she's back ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Bio-Impedance Testing - High Fluid Retention Factor = toxicity?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Journeyman, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    Since mid September I've been doing Cellular Health Analysis (bio-impedance) testing at my chemist and on a consistent basis I'm getting high Fluid Retention Factor (FRF) in the ranges the Dr normally only see's in those who are hungover or officially recognised as having chronic fatigue. That is, between 35 and now 52%

    I'm really at a loss as to why i'm getting these consistently high results which I'm told are an indication of 'toxicity' Previously I've had elevations in the 40-45% range and then by the omission of a certain 'agents' I found the results returned to the 'normal range' of 15-25%

    I don't think I'm particularly toxic... indeed I find it hard to believe there'd be much toxicity left at all after all the years of healthy eating / chemical avoidance I've been employing to overcome my general lack of energy.. Therefore I think its probably best to consider whats happened since the end of May when I had my last 'normal' result of 22% on the fluid retention factor (toxicity)

    From 1 June I would do coffee enema's once a week consistently till early September (3 months) On July 10 I commenced a methylation protocol using SAM-E (200mg), MeB12(1mg sublingual) and 5-MTHF (1mg) and within a few days I noticed symptoms which I now recognise as the startup symptoms: angular chelitis (cracking at sides of mouth), acne, and emotional lability. I continued this protocol and then reduced the intake of folate and B12 substantially in about early September taking just 1mg of B12 every 5th day and 1mg of folate once a day.

    In early October I got blood test results which showed a slightly elevated AST reading but other enzymes all normal.

    From 8 November onwards I commenced an amended methylation protocol based around the deadlock quartet hypothesis and with MUCH higher doses of folate (up to 7mg a day and 10mg B12) but omitted the SAM-E. I didn't get any acne or angular chelitis but felt fatigued in the extreme until I significantly reduced my folate intake. This was my first intake of Alpha Lipoic Acid too, but remember my high FRF was happening before this new supplement.

    What is the validity of the fluid retention factor as an accurate measure of 'toxicity' ?
    I've not been able to find anything helpful in google searching. I feel there must be some merit to it given my simultaneously high liver enzyme results (AST) but then I think of all my years of healthy living and struggle to believe I could have any appreciable toxicity.
    Is it possible that the methylation protocol I commenced in July has led to my body 'finding' hidden stores of toxins that have now been moved into other parts of my body?

    To give you more history: I've had hair analysis done in 2009 and 2010: the only abnormal result was Aluminium which wasn't too severe. More importantly I ceased the intake of the possible cause by buying organic Sea Salt (minus that anti caking agent which contains the Al) and regularly consumed curries filled with Black pepper/Cumin/Turmeric along with chlorella. I did 2 months of Far infra red sauna's and led an extraordinarily clean diet with ample Zinc supplementation and sulfur from dietary garlic. At no point did I notice any 'detox' symptoms and given my consumption of a super healthy diet since 2002 (just 21 years old) and heavy zinc supplementation going back to 2002 I think its safe to assume I hardly had any heavy metal burden.

    Why do I have this high fluid retention factor!!! I was so upset at seeing the 52% result I got today that I saw a GP later in the day who has given me a 2nd test sheet so I can re-test those liver enzymes but has also included serum ferritin and ceruloplasmin to check into iron or copper I'm guessing...

    Has anyone else run a methylation protocol whislt monitoring their progress using the bio-impedance measure, or indeed any kind of detox protocol? Did the fluid retention factor change much? It seems a valid measure: first being used by NASA to monitor health of their astronauts, so I think it might have credibility, but my results don't make sense....

    Is Vitamin D supplementation of 6000IU a day since June enough to cause a problem like this? as you can see I'm at a complete loss to understand it... yet I feel it might be quite important... Any advice would be appreciated.
     
  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    What's all that vitamin d for?

    I've seen someone else say rhat toxicity causes fluid retention. www.uniquehealing.com

    I think your diet of a lot of brassica vegetables and vitamin d is hard on your liver. I've never supplemented with d, but I've been there with the healthy diet

    If you relax on that and try some reishi, chaga, or cordyceps, you might feel better.

    And did you see this article? http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/vitamind/metabolism
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  3. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    @Journeyman
    this is something I'm battling too, so I'm going to watch this thread with interest.
    you have a great deal to support your health & I hear your frustration with these continued symptoms.
    I too have massive difficulties with fluid retention, although I have had no formal testing to quantify it, but it is quite obvious physical symptoms.
    From my research this appears to have to do with the detox pathway, which I see from your CPY statuses is impaired.
    More specifically, it can have to do with kidney, liver, and adrenal pathways.
    Adrenal would be the Aldosterone balance as related to sodium retention as well as management of steroid hormones *especially estrogen*, & liver involvement includes detox phase 1 & 2.
    In the past I have done quite a bit to support my adrenals, and this has led to decreased water retention generally. I find the adrenals to be quite finicky, and I have needed different supports @ different stages of healing. My naturopath recently told me that she believes that all North Americans have compromised adrenal function & could benefit from support.

    With respect to liver detox I have found a couple of things to help:
    a) Citrus Bioflavonoids - I use: http://naturalfactors.com/caen/products/detail/2840/citrus-bioflavonoids
    and I take up to 12 pills per day when it gets bad, and minimum of 9 pills per day.
    b) Calcium D-Glucarate 500 mg.
    I take up to 12 pills per day when bad, & minimum of 9 pills per day.
    c) Vitamin C IV therapy - amazing.
    d) B2 - I take min 300 mg/day up to 900 when really bloated
    e) clean, clean, clean diet - paleo, with avoidance of all estrogenic foods such as *soy* and I have to avoid all lignans as well (such as in grains and things like flax seeds) as these have physoestrogen qualities and work like weak estrogens in body. Avoidance of all plastics in food preparation and storage. Clean products for body as well (natural oils versus lotions).
    f) I have found that pushing forward with methylation has helped a lot.

    I'm not sure why our bodies have trouble processing toxins, and estrogens from environment. We did not win genetic lottery I guess. I also think other people have these problems, but they rely on ++stimulants to get through day, and likely a lot of these people have COMT +/+ mutation, which enables more of a dopamine action & ability to push oneself if activated. This is definitely the case with my husband & other people that I have seen with COMT +/+ peeps. Even though their energy may be impaired, and they feel like crap, they don't seem to crash in same way that I do.

    Good tip on sea salt & aluminum - will be buying organic next time.
    Hope that helps... S
     
    helen1 likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    917
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Journeyman,

    What is this fluid retention factor? Is this a propensity for edema?

    I found my reason(s) for edema. I took off 85 pounds of water, in two batches.

    I know nothing about this testing.
     
  5. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    @Freddd Can you share what worked for edema? huge issue for me.... thanks so much for your support! :)
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    917
    Salt Lake City
    HI Star-Anise,

    It happened in two batches. In the thread, http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/page-17 where there is a general time schedule that I actually used while finding and starting these things, and the pages with descriptions of the actual levels of healing at the beginning of the thread. It was basically the deadlock quartet plus cofactors. It needs to be worked up to. There are some cautions and preparations to make. Do the reading Then let's talk about it.
     
  7. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    Hi Fredd,

    The way it was explained to me by the chemist naturopath was that broadly speaking it was the propensity to enema, but above all, he spoke of intracellular to extracellular water ratio's as being one of the key factors, and that a poor ratio (as reflected by the elevated fluid retention factor) is a sign of toxicity causing that cellular environment. He's agreed to come back with a more detailed explanation after he talks with the manufacturer of this device.
     
  8. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21

    The ironic thing is that I have none of the signs of fluid retention... I have the best part of a 6 pack on my stomach and none of the facial puffiness.
     
  9. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    Hi Violeta,

    I wasn't aware that cruciferous vegetables or vitamin D were hard on your liver - I really would like to see some convincing evidence to support this...
    After posting the original thread here yesterday I went and re-checked Vitamin D intake to find that the amount I've been averaging for the last 6 months (6000 IU/day) is only 10% of the amount known to result in any kinds of overdose symptoms... Unless it has an extraordinary half life or is not easily disposed of by the body I can't see Vitamin D toxicity as being a problem for me.... again if you can find any evidence to suggest otherwise I'd welcome it.

    I've also just read over the article on mpkb.org and found it very difficult to draw clear conclusions from. It explains that Vitamin D metabolites 25-D and 1,25D (which I'm presumably converting from my vitamin D supplement Cholecalciferol) are both downregulating and upregulating of the Vitamin D receptor respectively. That both metabolites have a relatively similar binding factor (8.36 and 8.48 respectively) for the Vit D receptor, and that the body converts 25-D to the useful 1,25D during infection, or via the interplay with hormone system. I'd like to test my understanding that what its saying is that if you supplement a lot of Vitamin D then over the longer term it causes hormonal changes (via those multitude of genetic receptor affects) which in turn change the ratios of the two D metabolites to a less desirable level that might result in chronic inflammatory conditions?

    In case anyone is wondering why i'm supplementing please see my VDR TAQ ++ in my signature block. this advocates the heavy supplementation of D since my Vitamin D receptor activity must be particularly poor and I seem to recall something about Dopamine levels being closely related to this (low levels being the end result)
     
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    The main reason I linked to that article is that it says that the VDR is messed up because of intracellular pathogens.

    That would agree with what your naturopath is saying about intracellular toxicity.

    Is taking a lot of Vitamin D supposed to correct the problem with VDR?

    Toxicity causes fluid retention because the body holds onto water to try to neutralize the toxins.

    Have you ever had any symptoms that could seem to be related to a pathogen, such as lyme, epstein barr, chronic fatigue, or have you ever had symptoms of an autoimmune disease?

    Vitamin d is processed by the liver and kidneys. If your liver is congested (does high AST infer that?), extra vit d can add to the burden.

    As for the brassica vegetables, I should have asked, how do you do with vitamin b1, caffeine, and charred meat?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  11. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    @Violeta here there just wondering if you could provide more information about these association...
    as brassicas and I are not friends.... S
     
  12. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    Do you have any other symptoms related to the FRF? Are you fatigued? S
     
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    They have a chemical in them that induces Phase 1 detoxification, which for some people might work, but for others it can cause problems. They are goitrogens, which means they cause hypothyroid, but that seems to be only in some, too. I'm not sure if both issues are caused by the same chemical or not. I was able to eat them for many years, but now when I eat them I get hot/cold flashes, abdominal pain, hoarse or froggy voice, feel like I can't eat. What do they do to you?
     
  14. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    @Violeta
    well I have been avoiding brassicas for some time now due to CBS issues (amazing recovery in clarity of mind), but was also wondering if my general sensitivity to brassica family was related to the goitrogens as well as you have identified (I have slow T4-T3 conversion) and more so liver detox as well. But I crave citrus like a mad women, which I think it involved in phase 1 as well, maybe phase 2 too... so am still undecided on that note.

    was interested in the info specifically about caffeine, and charred meat - are they associated with the same symptoms and phase 1 detox too? would make sense. I like every other BBQ enthusiast loves charred meat :)/)

    I wasn't able to eat citrus for many years though due to almost immediate fatigue, which I correlated to my inability to properly detox. I think anything that ramped up that process just put my body into overload (++fatigue, & foggy head).

    Your symptoms are quite interesting:
    they obviously seem to be an irritant for your body...
    the hot/cold flashes I would lean towards the brassicas ability to influence hormone metabolism (increased estrogen metabolism), but it is surprising how sensitive/reactive you would be to a small amount...
    abdominal pain - I would say is related to their propensity to create digestive disturbances (if we are referring to brassicas).
    S
     
  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210





    I actually do think that goitrogens moreso involve the liver, where T4 is converted to T3, but it's goitrogens are always just reported as affecting the thyroid. I saw the blood work of someone who was following advice to drink a lot of green juices which included goitrogens, and her TSH actually went down, but she had all the symptoms of hypothyroid. I'll have to go see if I can find that to see her other numbers.

    I have an old book that lists the things that induce Phase 1 detox, and I haven't ever seen such a clear list online, but charred meat and B1 induce Phase I detox, too. And the caffeine is related because if you can't handle caffeine it is considered a marker for slow Phase I detox. The thing about the inducers causing problems, though, is that you can have poor Phase I detox and all the inducing in the world will only be like grinding gears and will cause problems. There are gene markers for this type of thing, though, the cytochromeP450's, but it doesn't look like you have any of those. Yes, citrus is listed as an inducer, however, grapefruit is the opposite. The naringen (sp?) actually slows Phase I detoxification.

    When you say the brassicas increase estrogen metabolism, do you mean they help get it out of the body, or they create estrogen problems? I do get the hot/cold flashes when my temperature goes down, but then again, estrogen is hard on the thyroid.

    I also crave citrus like a mad woman, and every now and then I go on an orange kick. I have some in the refridgerator right now. They are actually ripe and sweet; you can't often find them like that. Nothing is better than fresh squeezed orange juice. I'll eat a bag or two, but usually end up having to throw some of them away. Most fruit makes me have trouble sleeping. I felt myself going downhill this past time and stopped, but I can't remember if they caused brain fog. It might be from the fructose; I need lots of glucose but don't do well with fructose. So you can handle citrus now? Are you the person who started drinking a lot of lemon water? I'm sorry, but I can't keep everyone straight.
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  16. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    I think I'm a lot more fatigued than I should be for someone who eats as cleanly as I do and lives as healthy a lifestyle as i do yes. However unfortunately fatigue is a symptom of far too many other potention problems and so isn't going to help narrow down a solution on this aspect I'm afraid..
     
  17. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    204
    Likes:
    110
    @Violeta
    ah that makes total sense. Used to not be able to handle caffeine @ all. Fine now as long as it is green tea. Could never do a strong brewed coffee though. Back then I think that my body was just not strong enough to detox. My adrenal were very, very weak at the time.

    Yep, I do. Quite a few. I just don't have them listed. Will add them to my signature when I found them. I researched them as much as I could, and didn't fine a whole lot, so didn't bother listing. Several CYPs though......

    Ya, I staaay away from grapefruit. Although I do like it.

    I'm not sure about the exact mechanism. But I'm sure you've heard of DIM & I3C for use with estrogen dominance (stimulated estrogen metabolism - breakdown - I'm assuming in liver?). Brassica vegetables are high in these compounds.
    Wikipedia:
    That's so interesting! Someone at the health food store when I regular told me that there is 99mg of potassium in the average orange as well. I attribute my craving both to high potassium needs, & need to induce liver detox.

    Too much detox? Leaky gut? I know if I eat too much of something eventually I need to take a break. But lately citrus and beef have been the exception. I know I have to watch what brandnames of oranges I get. The mandarin oranges are a no go. They are treated with something to induce ripening that I react to. As well some brands of larger oranges too. I have to be careful. It causes all kinds of fatigue.

    I was drinking tonnes and tonnes of lemon water, couldn't get enough. But then that has died down. Other than potassium rich foods all the time, and dried apricots around PMS I'm pretty good with cravings now :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
    Violeta likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page