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Big Mistake, Conspiracy, or Nothing Unusual?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by toddm1960, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Cloud I was shocked by that video yesterday, I commented on another thread I never knew Elaine had other studies confirming her original find of the retrovirus........it never got published. Man sounds an awful lot like todays headlines for Judy huh. The other piece of the puzzel is funding, back in 92 the CAA cut all funds to Winstar, the lab Elaine work out of. Again sounds an awful lot like no federal funds going to WPI to fund Judy's work.
  2. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    I don't think that anyone set out to harm others. The conspiracy comes in when evidence is suppressed for whatever reasons.

    If this virus was created and spread in medical products such as biologicals, vaccines, etc., there is a huge vested interest in keeping that from the public. That is a conspiracy.

    One incident that causes me to lean in this direction is the outbreak at Los Angeles County General Hospital in 1934 where 198 staff members, doctors and nurses, were severely afflicted. Although these patients were treated as if they were hysterical and the nurses were even hysterectomized, they won a legal settlement from the hospital for 6 million dollars in 1939. A condition of the settlement was that they refrain from talking publicly about their ordeal.

    Each historical outbreak thereafter followed similar symptoms and similar repression of scientific studies. Something just does not feel right.

    Now they claim they created this virus in the lab accidentally, which may be closer to the truth, but the time table of happening in the 1990's does not fit the data from previous outbreaks. Just think, if they did transmit an infectious virus to the public, for generations, there are very good reasons to deny it.

    The most important thing now is to get down to the scientific facts and to start treating the sufferers with real treatments and with the respect they deserve. I have a lot of hope that the WPI and other honest scientists will come to the fore and take on the huge challenge of trying to set right what has been so wrong for so many years and is now a public health emergency.
  3. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    That quote from Tolstoy *really* made me think about the whole Wessely situation in the UK - about people not wanting to accept the truth if it would force them to abandon "conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives."

    Wessely and his mini-Wesselys have invested so much of themselves and their careers into their pet theories about ME - how could they admit themselves wrong now? They won't, unless they are really forced to. They have created an institutional line of thinking around themselves to the point where they *are* an institution, if only in their own country. [Even if the rest of the civilized world comes to accept a consensus of a known biomedical cause of ME/CFS, I can see a scenario in which Wessely or some of his followers continue to cling to their theory, while losing their influence and possibly their posts. It might be just that difficult for them to admit how disastrously wrong they've been and how much harm they have caused.]

    liquid sky, is there a reliable written source on what happened with the Los Angeles County Hospital outbreak and the incidents you mention in your post? I don't recall that level of detail appearing in Osler's Web about it; I certainly don't remember anything about nurses getting hysterectomies. It seems to me that the pattern with outbreaks during the polio years was that they were mostly assumed to be a form of polio, and we may not know enough even now to determine what those outbreaks actually were.
  4. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    My take on it is much the same as urbantravels' & Tolstoy's. Any conspiracy is in the denial and cover up of how badly they got it wrong, not in any original deliberate harm.

    Unfortunately, whatever their original motive, the end results are still the same, and they still have to be stopped and called to account.
  5. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Our most powerful Gov health institutions grossly negligent (to say the least) history and policies on ME/CFS cannot be adequately explained by stupidity. Not even close. "Malice" may be a bit harsh, but "stupidity" is out of the question.

    Even if it is about something more self serving (ego's, greed, or protecting vital interests), and appearing less conspiratorial, it's still a conspiracy if they are willfully concealing such actions while knowing it is keeping the truth out of reach. It may not be with malice to deliberately do us harm, but it would be willfully preventing (aka concealing) the truth...and this has added to our extended suffering for a very long time.

    Before experiencing first hand the world of ME/CFS politics, my mind just couldn't grasp such ideas that our Gov health institutions would have anything but our best interests at heart. I wouldn't have believed the weakest of conspiracy theories even if it crashed in my front yard. But 17 years of researching everything out there connected with this disease has changed my thinking. I don't believe for a second that it's about stupidity, incompetence, or just not getting it with this disease. Nor do I believe the other extremes such as deliberately hiding the truth from the start. I don't think they knew the truth from the start....I think they learned it along the way, and by then it had become much harder to expose. But of course, this is just my opinion.

    Todd, I felt the video had relevance to this topic for 2 reasons....The Dr DeFreitus story, and Annette's statement about those who are withholding care for this disease.
  6. fla

    fla Senior Member

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    If it were possible that every current and future ME sufferer would sign a contract promising never to sue anyone for their negligence in possibly causing ME, we would quickly get public funding on understanding and curing ME as other diseases do.

    Unfortunately such a contract is only possible as a thought experiment so we are stuck with MRC ME/CFS files sealed and the CDC's attitude of denial and trivialization. Isn't that the only responsible thing that governments can do if truth and subsequent lawsuits were to bankrupt the entire nation?

    In my thought experiment, I've already signed this imaginary contract and a cure is coming soon. In real life... I'm getting a massive headache from typing these three lines. :(
  7. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Loved the Tolstoy quote!

    (And I definitely agree with Eric et al. that, if the USA and UK go down, it would be bad because the Chinese or the Russians or the Syrians would then take everyone over. And that wouldn't look like Colonialism.)
  8. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    Urbantravels, I got this info from Osler's Web on page 200 in the footnote. It was from an investigation by Byron Hyde. It does say that all of the nurse's affected were hysterectomized as a treatment for their "hysteria", but this failed to improve their condition.
  9. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    Isn't this just so disgusting and maddening and primitive and unethical in today's view......but then again current medical attitiudes still being perpetuated in regard to M.E./CFS will equally be judged by future history as being unenlightened and primitive?
  10. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    I see after reading a few posts that most people don't want to honestly address this topic. Covering someones ass is the same as a conspiracy by definition #2. Maybe we will all have a different take if research, in the next month or two, doesn't drastically change course. Especially the discussion about research funding.

    I have posted from wiki the different definitions of conspiracies. I think so affectionately called "Chronic fatigue" falls into #2 below.

    1) Cabal, an association between religious, political, or tribal officials to further their own ends, usually by intrigue

    2) Conspiracy (civil), an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights, or to gain an unfair advantage

    3) Conspiracy (crime), an agreement between persons to break the law in the future, in some cases having committed an act to further that agreement

    4) Conspiracy (political), the overthrow of a government

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy


    The logic for me is quite easy. If you answer Yes to any of the questions below, by definition it is a conspiracy.Use my list or add your own.

    1) Have governments created l research papers, especially psychological (ie Reeves, Wessely ), that would deprive patients of disability benefits, services, or proper diagnosis?

    2) Has the government known, or strongly suspected, CFIDS/ME, (could add others too like Autism GWI), has a biological basis since the 1980's, while at the same time publishing piles of Reeves, Wessley research while avoiding any meaningful amount of research into biological causes?
  11. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    One final acid test question, if you answer "NO" to the below question it is a conspiracy.

    1) Can science adequately find cures, treatments, preventable measures, for an illness if the government doesn't openly admit it has a biological cause(for 25 years), and dedicate resources to finding that cause(for 25 years)?

    The answer is clearly NO. How can anybody solve a problem if the problem is not clearly and openly accepted by governments on their websites and in their literature? Based on MOST of the research I see, we are made to look lazy, crazy, depressed, etc.. So nobody can solve the problem. The government has NEVER openly admitted to what CFS is. Think Governments didn't know this would stfile research and innovation? Come on now.... they hold the purse strings for research for crying out loud.
  12. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    Well, when people are deliberately using power to suppress truthful information, or the facts, that calls for one kind of fight.

    Whereas, when people just aren't able to see out of their box of expectations, based on past experiences, or their cultural perspectives, that requires something else--maybe a gentler kind of help to show how 1 and 1 make 2, to put it abstractly. Repetition and persistent, clear communication...

    I often have trouble with simple conclusions based on putting a 1 and 1 together to make 2 now. I used to be smart, but no longer. So it is a little easier to see how others have trouble doing so as well.

    And I still have trouble really understanding my illness, what I can do/can't do without going through hard consequences, days of feeling really sick--activities I could have done in years before or maybe even months before.

    So my world of conditions is a moving one, and my mind doesn't keep up well with what the current situation may be. Others who know me don't keep up either. Being patient and trying to be clear with other people is an ongoing challenge, just as it is to myself.

    And this is just one part of life, what is important--
  13. Sing

    Sing Senior Member

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    markmc, I hadn't read your posts before I wrote mine. We were on different tracks. I don't want you to feel that I was ignoring yours, because I hadn't seen them.
  14. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Well, with Wessely, for him as a single perosn that is, it is a "conspiracy"
    this can be easily shown as he's had multiple real terrible illnesses or poisoning events classified as "hysteria" and thus blaming the victims, rather than the wrong doers, OR preventing victims claim fair compensation:
    ME/CFS
    Gulf War Syndrome
    Camelford Water poisoning screw up
    PTSD in Afghanistan veterans (yes they DO have it and other issues more cause there's booby traps all over the damn place)
    Organphosphate poisonings (farmers and iirc, aerotoxic syndrome too he has written about?)

    Over all, and with him working for/related to indurance companies and British Department of Welfare and Pensions, that is a pattern of very dubious behaviour at best. Hence "conspiracy", note inverted commas. Depends on your definition of "conspiracy".

    the broader question of: is ME/CFS the victim of a "conspiracy"? again, yes.
    Why did Wessely and others suddenly get allowed to talk crap about this disease and let millions suffer and die, when research even back then showed clear severe biological damage and even death?
    Answer is easy: look at the time line, it started in the 1980's when the Tory and Republican parties in UK/USA screwed our nations to Hell, when they stopped being "conservative" and became "corporate fascists" and allied with religious extremists (evangelical extemists and others).

    This also ties into Wessely and his ilk, see what I've already written about the "Living Marxist/Spiked" connection, how that's linked to "Science Media Centre" and others.
    Then add in the super-secret MRC document which has been classified above nuclear secrets, and the Social Security (pre-DWP) meetign that was held under the Official Secrets Act and "hushed up".

    It goes like this:
    Powerful rich evil people do not want to pay tax. They conned the American people into thinking "Paying tax is bad! it just goes ot big government!" in 1980s...since then, the share the ultra-rich, including corporations, has paid in tax has plummeted. For example, the Bush Jr era tax cuts saved the ultra-wealthy, NOT Joe Public, $3.3 TRILLION dollars...and that's why the USA is up to it's ass in debt and in deep real danger of going bankrupt
    but hey, hyperinflation is easily solvable! just put a lunatic dicator in charge and have a war...worked for the Germans... didn't it? *coughs*

    Fools think that ultra-rich avoiding tax is a "good thing!" no it is NOT! it means they have more wealth more power, less control and limits, and so have ended up owning our governments. Also it's why we're in such damn debt, UK tax evasion really costs us between 50 and 170 billion a year in lost revenue.
    Capitalism only works when it is very VERY rigorously controlled, not the insane "free market laissize faire" the psychopathic so-called "Libertarians" and others espouse

    and I know "Libertarian" includes a great many groups/ideals actually, some benign, however, there is a very evil bunch who claim to be "Libertarian" but who are in fact "libertines", big damn difference: they want no control over their actions, and have no compassion, no scruples at all, some reffer to themselves as "Neitzchians", ha! He'd spit on 'em. They wish to be free to pay no tax, have no social responsibilities, no controls, utterly selfish...monsters.
    Note that "Ethical Anarchism" is something else entirely. Charles Manson and Naom Chomski are very different! :thumbsup:

    Adam Smith actually warned what happens when you take Capitalism too far, sigh. Guy must be turning in his grave.

    So, anyway, by denying us ME/CFS folks, they save Big Business and Fat Cats money. They are also probably covering up a vaccine link, because I recall back in 80s in some Scandanvian country having such issues, ME/CFS occuring after vaccinations cropping up
    Whether they know an ME/Vaccine link is a fact or merely suspect it, they WILL cover such up. Facts do not matter to them, only the risk of them being forced to pay out massive compensation, to admit wrong doing, which will cause upset to the political puppets who pretend to rule etc

    The "Weasels" are very convenient tools for all this, and will be "discarded" if caught out.
    Thing is the Science DOES NOT MATTER!! people need to get this into their heads. Only political FORCE matters, you could prove say, that a vaccine has a problem that causes ME/CFS and sickens and kills millions, but they will NOT CARE! they will only care if enough folk not only believe but ACT on this.

    Think I'm kidding? Look at what a shitty disgusting mess they did with HIV/AIDS. They didn't give a damn if "fags and n's" died. Sorry to use such ugly terms, but that was exactly HOW they let it happen, by blaming an issue on the victims themselves, by making the victims socially unnacceptable, "verminous", "deserving of abuse", "un-Godly" etc, the abusers get power to do such evil.
    So, homophobia and racism helped let HIV/AIDS get ignored, with us it's because we are..."malingerers, hysterics, dotty old women" etc
    Do folk understand this? And please Mods, tip-toeing around this is foolish, for example, hiding the xenophobia of the nazi era, its slogans, newnspapers etc, is wrong, even if they use words/language we find abhorrent they HAVE to be seen and understood to grasp the horror, covering that up for "poltiical correctness" is WRONG. Same with trying ot hide the language used (usually covertly) against HIV victims
    Hey, supressing the Westboro baptists abominable speech only *helps* their sick cause. Let folk hear their lunatic words, it's the best weapon against them.
    HIV/AIDs was linked to gays. blacks and drug users, and thus, dehumanizing terms and concepts were applied ot them, to make it socially acceptable to NOT work on fiidning causes and cures ot help them.

    See how the Jews, socialists, humanists and others in Nazi Germany were victimized, scapegoated, made to be "criminals", and similar groups under Khmer Rouge, Stalin and other sons of bitches. (and NO the Nazis were NOT "socialists", despite their party name, go read up on it)

    Who were the first folk the Nazis started to mass murder? The disabled (The "Final Solution" began long after the "T-4" murder program of the disabled).
    Why did they murder the disabled first?
    Easy target
    cost the rich money
    many of the rich/powerful are sociopathic selfish evil bastards (that's why they get rich or the hunger for such leeches away their Humanity)
    and a nice testing ground to see how they could manipulate the public into supporting genocide.
    AND worst of all, they did it to "split a wedge" down the Humanity of the German people. Once you cross that line, once you start thinking it's ok to murder someone because they are"inconvenient", you are screwed!

    After you have abrogated that vital part of your Humanity,by being a willing part of mass murder, it's much easier to push such folk into worse atrocities...
    get rid of the disabled..you agreed to that! Now..the Jews!...now Russian prisoners of war...now Slavic People...now Allied Commandoes...etc
    Collective unspoken guilt DAMNS those who agreed with such, forms a bind, a goad, a shackle of guilt and shame and evil, and thus politicians etc can use that as a tool for leverage.
    it's very good psychology..oh and guess who had a big hand in the Nazi party? Psyhciatrists/psychologists and PR groups (not all of 'em of course not but some sure as hell did, good profit, experience and hell some were inhuman monsters)

    And that horrible lesson from the Nazi era was not lost! It's still being used to this day. Great ways ot manipulate the public, to put puppets and psychos in power. Look at how the UK and USA have went in last 30 years. We defeated a monster but are becoming the SAME monster.

    Ever heard of "Operation Paperclip"? US authorities shielded some of the Nazi scientists engaged in horrors, for their knowledge.
    Did the same with some of the Japanese, too. Go read up on Unit 731 if you have the stomach for it.
    The P2 Masonic Lodge in Italy, the Mafia, both used as CIA assets and the former became terrorists and the latter, well I think everyone knows about them, but NOT the fact that Mussolini, for all his crimes, had actually broken the Mafia, and the OSS (proto-CIA) aided and helped the Mafia rebuild.

    The world is run by massive webs of corruption and "mutual backscratching", not Illuminanti, just stupid greedy, internicene bullshit.
    The Nazis were NOT voted into power, Hitler was made Chancellor by the rich and powerful as a tool to keep control for them, serious, go read history.
    Look at current savage attacks on disabled/welfare in UK...oh I wonder why that is, eh? They are doing it AGAIN. Germany had real issues with Anti-Semitism, but the elite saw that mostly as a tool to gain power or part of their own arrogance, so today that's not the plan (and the Jews wouldn't stand for it ever again, they'd shoot back this time, quite rightly too)
    Today, it's the dismantling of the ideal of a Compassionate, Fair Society and the rule of jsut Law...all of which get in the way of the sons of bitches who really run things.
    Go read the UK's tabloids for last 2 years and see how the disabled and welafre recipients have become a scapegoat. If they sued such language/attacks on ANYONE else, they'd be sued and even jailed.
    But we are "acceptable targets" :headache:

    Look at America, read their Bill of Rights, one of the greatest achievements of Humankind!
    and then look at Guantanimo bay, Abu Ghraib the invason of Iraq on a lie, that it's the richest nation on the planet but has the worst health standards in the developed world and rampant sociatal ills are tearing it apart.
    Look at the UK, who created the NHS free health care for all, a welfare system so no more folk would rot in slums or workhouses...now what do we have? Politicians saying that the poor need ot be made poorer as it makes them more eager for work and that the NHS costs too much.

    GAH! Such always leads to madness and diabolic evil. One step follows another...to inevitable horror.
    Most folk canot see this, do not understand the steps between letting selfish support of rampant politicians lead to the concentration camps or other such abominations. This time it will be something else, but the results will be the same: mass murder, horror on a grand scale.
    All because folk were too damn greedy, spiteful and weak to see that supporting our gutless systems, that rampant consumerism is a form of addiction, one that keeps us weak, that slowly fills our veins and world with accumulated poisons. The Power Elite know this, they have no fear of the populace rising up, as we are addicted to cheap DVDs, books, games etc.

    Our seas are filling with plastic and chemical detritus. Sand on your beaches contains millions of tiny, toxic plastic particles, that get in fish, that get into you.

    The Cold War lunacy led to vast amounts of radioactive AND deadly toxic filth spewing into the North Sea frum Sellafield in the UK, the retards dumped two TONS of uranium oxide into the sea there, and they had already dumped 1 MILLION tons of munitions there from two world war left over (see Beauforts Dyke)

    The Russians let the filth form a reactor spew DIRECTLY into a lake, you'd get a lethal dose just by being there for 15 minutes, and inhale ANY of the dust and your a dead man anyway. See "Mayak"

    The Americans dumped nerve gas off their shores during the 60s, and the Allies dumped Gemran nerve gas after WW2 into the Skagerrak and now that's leaking.

    I could go on..sigh.

    Rupert Murdoch, his kind, and the bankers, the CEOs the hedge fund managers etc are going to damn us all. The Human Race is going to go extinct, we're just one part of this vast "Conspiracy of Compassionless Silencing", whether it's ME/CFS, chrome/mercury in ground water, asbestos in schools, Gulf War Syndrome being denied, pharma corps falsifying the MAJORITY of their research data...etc...etc..

    We're just "in the way" so we are to be "Buried, ignored, lost"
    NO amount of scientific fact will change this, 3000+ articles all prove ME/CFS is REAL, and it is IGNORED, and always WILL be, until Joe Public gets so insensed they riot or hold huge rallies, or some disaster scares the shit out of folk and FORCES change.

    To show the insanity of we modern Humans:
    40,000 Americans die on the road each year, this is somehow *acceptable losses*?! during the 1970s, it was over 100,000 EVERY year.
    basically a Hiroshima every year in the USA today, and Hiroshima AND Nagasaki every two years in the 1970s, and no one gave a F**K.
    Folk freaked out, understandably, over 9/11...more than 10 times that number get DISMEMBERED, BURNED to death on the roads each year, see much hullabaloo about that? no, because somehow it's "acceptable". :(

    if a terrorist blew up 112 people, that would be huge news for weeks, but that's how many folk die on US roads every day...big deal, they are just "blips" it doesn't sell papers, and hey, the paper owners own shares in the car companies...folk *acept that* slaughter.

    How's that for a "conspiracy": our modern greedy stupid ways, make it "acceptable" for 40,000 innocent people to die horribly each year. these losses could have been drastically reduced long ao,o but it's not in the interest of the hoodwinked public who want "cheap gas, freedom and speed on the road!"
    as for the power elite...well it gets rid off "excess population"....

    Sorry for the bitterness, sigh. But folk see what I mean?
  15. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Impressive post SB, I'm right there with you :thumbsup: History always repeats itself and we are tipping back to fascist states, corporations controll more and more everyday.
  16. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    laws of organizational inertia

    While I would hesitate to get into many parts of this discussion, I will contribute a profound observation on human organizations formed over a period of decades:
    Readers with especially acute insight will notice this mentions no effect due to external information. If reality intrudes in the form of sudden, violent death for those making decisions, as in the manufacture of nitroglycerin, you may see a response to external conditions. (Not always, but sometimes.) In all other circumstances, their effect is negligible.

    A guideline I've regularly used, not yet solid enough to be a law, may be stated as follows:
    In tribute to distinguished predecessors in the field of hierarchiology, it is appropriate here to reference the law of C. Northcote Parkinson:
    This has a corollary:
    Another contribution of my own comes from following a number of reports of disturbing news through levels in hierarchies. A report clearly stating the organization is on a collision course with a large iceberg will morph into a forecast of clear sailing as it navigates the swift current of information flowing down from higher ground, like a salmon swimming upstream. Reports which fail to adapt never reach their goal.

    The only people in most organizations in contact with external reality are those at the bottom of the hierarchy. Everyone higher up lives in a world of opinions formed within the organization. Those at the top are the last people you should ask what is going on.

    Perhaps someone else can form this into an aphorism.
  17. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    One of Upton Sinclair's most famous lines: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."
  18. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    You missed out the connection between mobile phone radiation and brain cancer, discovered in scandinavia, undiscovered in the UK, reestablished in scandinavia, re-undiscovered in the UK, and now it's time for a massive UK study to bury it as deep as possible. "Studies of studies" averaging out the real science and the denialist science are also popular as a next step, consistently showing 'inconclusive' findings and 'a need for further research'.

    I agree with your emphasis here, Silverblade. For me, a little study of Wessely's wider career was enough to clinch an understanding of the role he plays: it jumps off the page. Similarly, a little study of the history of the UK's Science Media Centre and the philosophy of the former Living Marxism movement that runs it, is also sufficient to understand the political context.

    Whilst I agree that what MarkMc is saying about the definition of the word 'conspiracy' is technically correct, I personally think it's a very unhelpful word in the context of its popular usage today. It is an automatic insult frequently levelled at people when they get close to the truth; a way of discrediting people. Use that word, and whatever else you may be saying, most people who you want to influence will assume an attitude of scepticism towards you. The word almost defines a line down the middle of society nowadays: those who are comfortable with identifying with the word, versus those who still think the very concept is definitive of madness and paranoia.

    At the end of the day though, it's still just a word, and hence doesn't ever quite mean what we think it means, and means very different things to different people.

    I think we would do best, really, to try to just present all the relevant facts, in a form that cannot be disputed, without comment, and let the reader draw their own conclusions. That way, one's argument comes across all the more powerfully, by allowing the reader to label the meaning as 'conspiracy', 'cover-up', 'gross negligence', 'institutional incompetence', or whatever their personal way of looking at the world permits them to think.

    We don't need to shout and tell people there's a big conspiracy. We just need to lay out the facts of the matter, clearly and simply, together in one place in an easily-digestible and indisputable format. The facts speak for themselves...
  19. PokerPlayer

    PokerPlayer Guest

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    What I think

    When I think about cfs/me and why it has taken so long to get research, I always think about MONEY. That is all it is, money and politics. The thing that stands out in my mind is, what is best for the american economy certainly is NOT what is best for the health of the american people.

    Look at it this way, we do know that statin drugs to lower cholesterol actually do not really work. The whole problem of high cholesterol has most likely a viral/infection/bacterial autoimmune sort of cause. Statin drugs do nothing to get rid of this root problem, they just "lower plaque build up in arteries of cholesterol which can be caused by excessive intake of high cholesterol foods". Hogwash. I tested high in cholesterol when I was on a zero cholesterol diet. I have switched my diet to high cholesterol (lots of eggs and fatty red meat) and my cholesterol has since come to balance.

    So why do I use this statin illustration? Drug companies. Just think how bad it would be for the American economy if the real solution to high cholesterol was found, and it happened to be a combination of diet/supplements. Pharmaceutical companies would go out of business and tons of jobs and profit would be lost. Similarly look at depression. We all know that ssri's only work for half the people they are used on. And, we know that raising serotonin is not really how they work at all, but rather helping some other process out in the body. It is through my reading that depression and cfs is very similar in makeup. It has been over a decade that we have known that depression is a result of increased cytokines causing inflammation in the brain which reduces dopamine signaling. In other words, depression is sort of an autoimmune problem where the body is firing inflammatory signals in the brain, which is very similar to what happens when someone has a fever. Ever had a fever and turned on some music and felt happy nostalgia? No one has, because their body is fighting inflammation in their brain.

    Anyway, all this rambling leads me to say, we have not even come close to finding what the best way to deal with health problems is for the people. However, we have reached the pinnacle of finding the best economic way of finding how to deal with health problems that can be chronic but not life threatening. Look at blood pressure, look at depression, look at cholesterol, geez there are probably so many chronic non-life threatening illnesses out there its disgusting. But, the best way to get money out of people and build up the economy is to medicate, not heal people. No money can be made from someone who is completely healed.

    We will reach a tipping point in the health care industry. Maybe not soon. But eventually the way we deal with sicknesses will be a bit different. They will all require root cause solutions. And, this will not require chronic drug usage or something else to profit from. This is a huge problem, you think all these pharmaceutical companies that are a big part of our economy are just going to disappear? It will probably be a long phase out period where pharmaceutical companies shrink smaller and smaller and it will take the course of a century or two to do this.

    This is why I believe xmrv is so interesting. I think that there is a lot at stake in cfs/me patients, more than anyone can believe. The whole nature of "what is an illness" and "how to treat an illness" is at stake. I think that if xmrv or some other bacterial/viral origin of cfs is found and treated, then there will be some interesting things to take from this. The one that is so huge to me is that many people with depression from cfs/me will have their depression healed. People with POTS will have that healed. Basically, people with cfs have all these symptoms that make you have to deal with the body holistically to heal. You can't just bandaid a symptom with pharmaceuticals. There are too many overlapping symptoms, which means a pharmaceutical balance act is not possible, but for a lot of people in their 50's taking many medications at once is the norm.

    Solving CFS/ME strikes me as a huge breakthrough in how we deal with treating illnesses. Once we find how to deal with cfs, I think the public will know the true nature of a lot more chronic illnesses. Personally, I think a lot of problems in the body are bacterial problems/viral/autoimmune. I think the immune system is the key to the future of how to heal the body, and this causes a lot of problems for current stakeholders in health care.
  20. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Mark
    so Wessely was involved with mobiel phone issues as well? sigh, not surprising, is it? Anything that's got money/Big Business, that lot bend over and grease up for a share! :p

    Yeah it's odd, but not too surprisng how that lot went from extreme socialism to extreme capitalism when ya think about it...extremists of ANY sort always, always *suck*, they are dangerous, evil or mad bastards :/
    They never care about the ethos, or morals or individuals etc they claim they represent, it's always about THEIR *demands*, and "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs!" crap, and eggs do not scream.

    yes, facts speak for themselves, but most people do not want to hear them! They want to be told what is acceptable ot believe rather than think and stand up for themselves, and that's big part of why the Human Race is so screwed up.
    "WAKE UP SHEEPLES OUT THERE! Or yer gonna be shorn and made into mutton!" :p

    oh another part of why those damn "pretend-Libertarians" are so heinous: they love Ayn Rand. Ye gods, a sociopathic woman who idolized child molesters and serial killers is their icon...WTF?!
    And one Rand-fantatic was in charge of the US Economy during the Reagan era (see Alan Greenspan, the man who's largely repsonsible for the economic disaster we've all seen unfold)
    *Silverblade makes like Daffy Duck and uses finger to make circles around his temple*
    "And they call ME nuts?!" :p

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