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BHMT, Transsulfuration, and Methionine Synthase Pathway

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Lotus97, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I have several questions about this, but I want start with something Genetic Genie told me. They said I had to stimulate the BHMT pathway because I have 3 homozygous BHMT polymorphisms
    Does DMG (not to be confused with TMG) stimulate the BHMT pathway? Because what Rich said about DMG and the BHMT pathway makes it sound like it does the opposite. Am I missing something?
     
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I aso have 3 BHMT mutations. I believe that TMG is important for health for EVERYONE. The people who get the most betaine by DIET get 2g/day and I try to take that. From my experimentation, I do not believe you can force a pathway. It goes at the speed it goes. You can stop a pathway with improper nutrition (or improper for you), but cannot speed it up. The B12+folate pathway is INHERENTLY slower than the BHMT pathway because it requires more chemical reactions to occur on that pathway. The BHMT pathway is intended to bee the shuttlecock that keeps the boiler from bursting under pressure...if you do not assist that pathway your homocysteine will soar. And sure, you'll have plenty of fuel for the B12+folate pathway, but it will not work faster, and the homocysteie will kill you over time. The key is IMHO to supply the BHMT pathway and never have more than 6.3 of homocysteine sitting in the queue waiting to be converted back to methionine. That s ENOUGH of a queue. Any more is not gonna help you. And homocysteine is real easy to measure.

    As for DMG...I have no interest in it. I don't believe it serves any purpose. TMG works, why muck with anything less?
     
  3. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    Lotus97,
    I have puzzled over this myself. I don't think DMG stimulates the BHMT pathway. I think taking it as a supplement would create back pressure and encourage the long pathway via methionine synthase.
     
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't know how you can possibly make a blanket statement like "EVERYONE needs TMG". Not everyone needs additional methyl donors. There's a study that shows that for some people even just hydroxocobalamin and a little bit of methylfolate increases SAMe and donates enough methyl groups to get methylation going.
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
    Some people do need methylcobalamin and higher doses of methylfolate and *SOME* people might need additional methyl donors like TMG and SAMe, but certainly not everyone or even a large percentage of people.

    There's no way anyone is getting anywhere near 2000 mg of betaine/TMG from their diet unless they're eating a serving each of quinoa, wheat bran, spinach, and beets everyday (four total servings).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylglycine
    I can't imagine why many people would need anywhere near that much.

    I'm also not sure where you're getting your information about BHMT and homocysteine. Is there a study about this? It's only very recently that there's even been a study with SAMe and homocysteine (let alone methylation and homocysteine).
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422296?dopt=Abstract
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  5. nkm

    nkm

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    My communication with Rich and Prof. Richard Lord (Chief Science Officer at Metametrix) both confirmed DMG is an inhibitor to the BHMT pathway. I know Yasko actively uses this pathway in her protocol whereby she first stimulates it with TMG to increase SAMe levels and then uses DMG to inhibit BHMT while working on the long route with folate/B12.

    I respect a lot of what Dr. Yasko does but at the same time, to suggest taking 400mg of a PS/PE/PC combination is going to give improvements by short cutting the methylation cycle doesn't sit well with me. Firstly, it makes little sense to think a small amount of phospholipids is going to be sufficient for the BHMT pathway. Secondly, the BHMT pathway is mainly in the liver and [IIRC] kidneys and not so much the CNS.

    It would make more sense to say autistic kids get a benefit from this combo because the neurons and their mitochondria are getting the material to repair their membranes. This would be backed up with all the research into why omega 3 [fish oil] works wonders for kids that are ADD/ADHD. In most cases I read about, the kids were off ritalin etc within a 3 months period of fish oil supplementation.
     
    greenshots and Lotus97 like this.
  6. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

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    nkm said "Secondly, the BHMT pathway is mainly in the liver and [IIRC] kidneys and not so much the CNS."

    In his very recent subscriber webinair about folate, Dr. Ben Lynch said the BHMT pathway is in the liver, kidneys, and eyes, and that's it.
     
    nkm likes this.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It seems there is a study where taking TMG lowered homocysteine
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/76/5/961.long
    But how do you know it isn't just methylation that's reducing homocysteine? In which case TMG is optional. It is strange that TMG lowered homocysteine, but not SAMe unless there's something in both of these studies that I'm missing.
     
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So dbkita also said that DMG inhibits BHMT. I don't think there was much of a question when I started this thread, but I wanted to clear it up due to what Genetic Genie said. He also talks about the role of BHMT and CBS. Also, dbkita has said that stimulating the BHMT pathway too much can cause a greater amount of dopamine to be converted into norepinephrine.
    He is speaking here with someone who has both CBS and BHMT mutations.
     
  9. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    You can ask the person who runs GeneticGenie what his reasons are for stating that - he's a member here.
     
  10. taroki

    taroki Senior Member

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    bump ....

    Would DMG help get rid of the anxiety in someone who is +/+ for all 3 of BHMT-02, BHMT-04, BHMT-08? What else can help?

    My boyfriend started having a lot of anxiety after doing Methyl B12 and Methyl Folate. Phosphatidyl Serine and TMG doesn't do anything for him.

    I have just ordered a lot of supplements from Dr. Yasko to support Step One (for myself and him). Hopefully something will help with his anxiety.
     
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @taroki This is just a speculation. I really can only speak from my own experience. It doesn't seem to me that DMG would help w/ this, if bf
    DMG, like TMG, is a methyl donor, so, it seems to me, this would only exacerbate the problem. Is he taking K+? Increasing folate can create need for K+, w/ breathlessness, anxiety type symptoms. May also possibly be due to increase in histamines &/or ammonia. I'm taking a lot of things to deal w/ these. Histamine: royal jelly, rutin, mangosteen; before I replace it w/ mangosteen, I also used quercetin. Sulfur/ammonia: ornithine, lysine, citrulline, butyrate. I started w/ yucca tincture, but it tasted so bad, I happily switched to ornithine when I discovered it. Good luck w/ finding the underlying cause.;)
     
  12. taroki

    taroki Senior Member

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    What is K+? Is that potassium? I think he is ok on potassium since he eats a lot of bananas (and hair test shows potassium level is good).

    hmm ... I noticed my histamine allergies, sulphite/sulphur sensitivites, and sometimes ammonia symptoms (suicidal thoughts, fibromyalgia) all increase after B12 and methyl folate. Oh well, hopefully things will be better after doing methylation properly with step one supplements.
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Yes, K+ = potassium. re your hmmm, yes, that's the reason to Start Low, Go Slow!:thumbsup:
     
  14. taroki

    taroki Senior Member

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    @ahmo
    Did you say butyrate helped you with sulfur/ammonia issue? I bought some BodyBio sodium butyrate a while back but never got around to trying it. I did try Miyarisan (clostridium butyricum) from Japan and it is helping with food sensitivities/leaky gut.

    I would love to get rid of the sulphite/sulphur issue but I don't think I'm ready to take more molybdenum yet until I am done with Dr. Yasko's step one supplements. I do know fecal transplant/poop pills will help but that would be a bit later.
     
  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ahmo - did the butyrate help w sulfur/ammonia issues?

    thanks
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @ebethc Yes, the butyrate helps. And my body always wants it after I've done coffee enemas, presumably releasing ammonia.
     

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