The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Best Biofilm Busters?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by sk123, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. sk123

    sk123

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    Can someone please recommend good biofilm busters that have worked for them? I have high arabinose on nutreval and MD placed me on 100 mg diflucan daily for a week and then one 100 mg once a week for next 6 wks. Does this seem about right? I am a bit worried about my liver with this protocol. Anyone used something different? Nothing showed up on Gi effects test but the high arbinose showed up on nutreval. So this means the yeast are higher up in small intestine?

    She also said to take herbal antimicrobials on the days I am not doing the diflucan. I am adding in a lot of probiotics already while I am on the diflucan. If the intestinal walls are occupied by yeast, would the probiotic be able to latch on at this point or wait a week to start probiotics?

    Interfase plus was the recomendation given for dissolving biolfim but I see that it has EDTA in it. I possibly have some heavy metal issues esp mercury so I am wondering if this is ok to take? They also make plain interfase without EDTA but wondering if it doesnt interfere much with heavy metal issue that maybe it might be better to take interfase plus instead of plain interfase? What are the thoughts on lauricidin?
    Thank you!
     
  2. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    It would of been helpful if you had made it clear what you were fighting rather than make people work to find out.

    It might be worth using some Milk Thistle extract to help your liver. BTW Milk Thistle has some efflux pump inhibiting properties for some types of microorganism efflux pumps. I am not sure what types of efflux pumps fungi use. There should be lots of info on Candida and their efflux pumps so it would be worth reading up on that to find suitable Efflux Pump Inhibitors to stop them from eliminating antifungals. EPI's can make antifungals far more effective and which require much lower doses to produce the same effect.

    EDTA should not mobilise heavy metals, it should only bind to them in the digestive system and a small amount in the blood stream from where they will be excreted. Methionine and Cysteine or N-A-C can cause problems. It would be worth getting testing to make sure whether you are really affected by this as guessing is not very helpful IMO.

    TBH Interfase plus is a bit of a waste of time IMO. I have been using it myself and would now purchase the none plus version because the enzyme quantity is higher due to not wasting space with EDTA which is far too low IMO. It's better, cheaper and provides far more EDTA if EDTA is purchased seperately and added to capsules because it is very cheap. The none plus capsules are more expensive though so I would probably purchase the plus if it was more cost effective which for me it probably is. I would still prefer the none plus as I do already have EDTA.

    You will not beat a biofilm unless you use Quorum Sensing Inhibitors to stop microorganisms from signalling to reinforce the biofilm. Whenever you attack a biofilm the microorganisms will immediately send chemical signals called Quorum Sensing to communicate with other members of the community to reinforce the biofilm. They can do this so efficiently that you will never substantially reduce the biofilm to allow greater access and effect by antimicrobials.

    Most microorganisms also use Efflux Pumps to eliminate toxic substances such as antibiotics or antifungals and stopping these can make antimicrobials far more effective. There are different Efflux Pumps used by different microorganisms and many herbs can inhibit different efflux pumps. You would need to match the herb to the correct efflux pump.

    There are also other Enzymes which can be quite effective against biofilms. Biofilm Defense is one such alternative to Interfase. It uses Nattokinase and Serrapeptase. I have used Interfase plus which on it's own had zero effect, I have added Nattokinase and Serrapeptase which also had zero effect. It was only by adding an appropriate QSI that the enzymes had considerably more effect. Then I was able to get to and substantially affect the microorganisms (Bacteria) inside the biofilm.

    QSI wait for it to enter the biofilm followed by Enzymes wait for effect maybe adding some EPI. Then follow with more QSI and maybe more enzymes and EPI. Follow immediately with Strong Antimicrobials.

    One of the strongest Antimicrobials is Ceylon Cinnamon essential oil. It can even destroy microorganisms inside biofilms. It is effective against Candida BTW. You do need to be very careful when using it and NEVER swallow it neat. It reacts to mucos membranes and cause serious problems. I understand that some people have died or nearly died consuming it neat. Adding small amounts to capsules or better would be mixing into food which many people do purely for the taste. Getting Organic Ceylon Cinnamon eo and never using Cassia.

    I have some Ceylon Cinnamon eo myself and intend using it when I get a few other things completed. Emulsified oils would be more effective IMO.

    BTW Two of the best QSI formulas which can Inhibit all the known Quorum Sensing are BFB 1 and BFB 2. These are only meant for external use putting on the skin but I doubt this would be effective or not effective enough. I think that this might be to work around any legal issues if claiming to be for internal usage.
     
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  3. junkcrap50

    junkcrap50 Senior Member

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    Wow that was really helpful. I have never heard of Quorum Sensing Inhibitors. Do they really work?
     
  4. *GG*

    *GG* Moderator

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  5. sk123

    sk123

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    Thank you for your reply! Sorry I should have mentioned that its candida that I am dealing with plus stealth viruses like EBV, HHV6, an some mycoplasma. Immediate concern is the candida. I have already been taking milk thistle for a while now and continue to take it while I am on diflucan. Been having tinnitus and some diziness on one side of the head only with close computer work and cell phone reading etc for 5 months now..its waxes and wanes. I think this might be related to EBV or even candida. The tinnitus is only in one ear though which is strange.

    I didnt catch what you meant by the none plus version of interfase? Did you mean you would purchase the plain interfase from Klaire Labs instead of interfase plus which has the EDTA?

    What is interesting is that the interfase plus has 675 mg enzyme blend plus the EDTA while the regular interfase says 425 mg enzyme blend . Interfase plus is cheaper even though it has the EDTA plus the higher enzyme content?! That doesnt seem right.

    This is what I am reading on candida albicans. "It is now well-known that the enhanced expression of ATP binding cassette (ABC) and major facilitator superfamily (MFS) proteins contribute to the development of tolerance to antifungals in yeasts. For example, the azole resistant clinical isolates of the opportunistic human fungal pathogen Candida albicans show an overexpression of Cdr1p and/or CaMdr1p belonging to ABC and MFS superfamilies, respectively." I am getting much results after searching for candida albicans efflux inhibitors.

    Interesting about the cinnamon essential oil. I do use the ceylon powder but dont have the essential oil..will have to look into who would sell this.

    What are you thoughts on Lauricidin please?[/QUOTE]
     
  6. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    That is what I was saying. They carefully manipulate the labelling on the plus version, stating the dosage for 2 caps whereas it is only 1 cap for the none plus variety. That means the plus has a total weight INCLUDING EDTA of only 337.5mg /cap whereas the none plus has 425mg of enzymes, that is a 87.5mg difference in favour of the none plus variety. If you take out the weight of the EDTA you get a lot less enzymes which is why the plus is cheaper! That is why I would prefer the none plus variety but that depends on the cost of each.

    If the none plus was a lot cheaper than I can purchase the plus variety then I would buy the none plus. However the price on Amazon (£23.89) for the plus is significantly lower than the none plus at the only site I know of that sells it ->£45.48. Nearly twice the price therefore I will stick to the plus ATM. If the price difference for you is much closer then the none plus might be better and then get a little EDTA. There is not enough EDTA in the caps anyway so it needs to be added to. EDTA is safe up to 2 grams taken by IV, 1.5 grams is frequently used. The digestive system will only absorb a fraction of EDTA so taking even 2 grams in veg caps should be very safe and provide far more binding ability. EDTA binds up the metals such as Calcium, Magnesium, Iron and possibly heavy metals which are broken out of the biofilm and prevent the microorganisms from reusing them to rebuild.

    You need to find EPI herbs which can inhibit those efflux pumps used by Candida.

    I do remember people on curezone saying that Goldenseal LEAF was effective against Candida efflux pumps among other microorganisms. However Goldenseal leaf is very difficult to purchase here as it is indigenous to the States and therefore would need to be imported. Delivery alone is quite expensive for tiny amounts of herb.

    It might be worth searching for just the efflux pumps used by Candida without mentioning candida so that you can find all applicable herbs. EPI's would be very helpful and might help those antifungal meds work better if you can get some suitable herbs quickly while you are still taking the antifungals. Be aware that some EPI's are more systemic than others. Licorice is systemic and stays in the bloodstream for many hours whereas others are either poorly absorbed or are eliminated quickly.

    It's fairly commonly available but you do need to find some Organic so that it is pure. It can be effective against Fluconazole resistant Candida so it might provide an additional weapon against it. diflucan = Fluconazole. I am reluctant to use it in food, some do, as it can be quite strong and might affect digestive bacteria. Remember that you should not swallow it neat because it would cause a very unpleasant reaction to the mouth and throat!!!! At the very least it should be added to a capsule. Expect some discomfort in the stomach but that is positive as it shows it is having some effect.

    I have some Lauricidin but have never found it all that effective apart from an oral gum infection for which it worked well when dissolved/melted. I prefer other antimicrobials. Even Reduced Colloidal Silver has been more effective for me

    Be aware that I have not been fighting Candida, I am attempting to destroy the microorganism which causes CFS, of which there is a very big list of possibilities, so my experiences will be very different. The reason why some people have had success using various antimicrobials mainly natural sourced, is that the microorganism which causes CFS can be many different species and all have varying degress of resistance. Factor in the biofilm - mature and immature biofilms and level of microbial adaption depending upon the length of infection/CFS goes a long way to explain how a natural treatment such as CBD can work for one but not another sufferer. I doubt that any researcher has enough in them to work this out especially as older research will make researchers dismiss the most important things. Even then they will be scratching their A$$e$ and still not realising the most important part, how increased permeability can affect multiple locations. Something which I worked out 4 years ago in Jan 2014. All the research and rubbish information about Increased Digestive Permeability Syndrome is all incorrect and the recommended treatments just waste people's money on things which cannot work. CFS take L-Glutamine because "someone" said it helps, most likely promoted by supporters of the psychology crowd hoping that the placebo effect will magically fix people. It will not because the microorganisms prevent the digestive system from healing. Are you aware that Quorum Sensing is also takes place between bacteria and the gut? I think that pathogenic bacteria manipulate ie take advantage of this by "telling" the digestive system that everything is healthy and no mucosa needs to be produced which allows them to replace it by a biofilm. Guess what the biofilm does? L 3 a k 3 y G v 7. Tight Junctions being responsible is a bullshit idea with no basis in fact. Many symptoms and people's experiences are all caused by the biofilm and the way it manipulates the human body.
    L-glutamine can frequently sedate which is not helpful with tiredness/exhaustion and will never solve the problem. L-glutamine is not needed because the digestive system heals within minutes without it as soon as the infection is destroyed. I have my own personal experiences to prove this, at least to myself. When I healed by destroying one of the infections there was quite a bit of discomfort for around 10 minutes.

    Most pharmaceutical antimicrobials will do nothing because they never solve autoimmune illness which is a prime example of antibiotic resistance. I have had some success destroying a large portion of another biofilm which largely fell to Reduced Colloidal Silver and I have far more than most of you, 5 very large biofilms with far greater digestive permeability as a result. I have also hurt the ones which cause it and I used one essential oil which is contained in the BFB 1 & BFB 2 when I did so but so far I have not been able to destroy them. All earlier attempts using numerous antimicrobials including essential oils have had zero effect on them. Essential oils did affect the biofilm which did later fall to R CS and I suspect that could be S. Aureus ie MRSA because gram positive are more affected by oils than gram negative bacteria.

    I now have far more things at my disposal so I am hopeful that my next attempt will be far more successful. I have made very little use of EPI's, only one attempt with licorice which did not seem to help. I have a few things that I need to get done, including making some Reduced CS and emulsifying some essential oils among a big list before I will make any further attempts. Preparation is key because there is no time to do things once started because timing is critical.

    CFS already have an altered microbiome due to very telling elements of this illness. What CFS do not need are doctors blasting their digestive systems with antibiotics to make the situation worse. Lytic Bacteriophages would be the best bet IMO coupled with enzymes/QSI to degrade the biofilm so that the phages can more easily attack the bacteria.

    Biofilms are designed to protect bacteria from phages as well as other bacteria and gives them multiple opportunities to adapt to toxins. Phages can sometimes destroy them but not 100% effectively. Eliminating the biofilm would allow them to wipe out the bacteria without damaging the microbiome. Quite a range of different phages would be needed to address all possible bacterial causes, most of which are pathogenic anyway so no loss to humans.
     
  7. sk123

    sk123

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    AHH so sneaky..I didnt realize the content was based on 2 pills instead of one for the interfase plus. Well the regular interfase it is then. The regular interfase is double the price but its 1 pill vs the 2 for plus version
    Also I did see one study on the use of berberine as an efflux pump inhibitor for candida. Thanks for that tip!

    Any idea if berberine destroys good bacteria as well or is it pretty sparing of the commensal bacteria? I was planning on doing heavy duty probiotics while taking diflucan but might wait until until I finish out a week of the diflucan plus berberine atleast. Maybe just do the S boulardi in the meantime
     
  8. sk123

    sk123

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    Why does taking glutamine raise blood sugar in some people? What is the mechanism behind that?
     
  9. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    It is not berberine which is an EPI, berberine has antimicrobial properties and is present in many different plants. The EPI part is another natural element (5'Methoxyhydnocarpin-D) which is mainly present in the leaves and not the more commonly used root. Many Goldenseal supplements which are sold are the root rather than the leaf. Berberine extract is also available.
    Baicalein in Chinese Skullcap has EPI properties but OTTOMH I cannot remember what efflux pumps it inhibits. It also has quite strong antihistmine effects and anti inflammatory effects so might be beneficial for CFS for those other reasons.

    Synergy in a medicinal plant: Antimicrobial action of berberine potentiated by 5'-methoxyhydnocarpin, a multidrug pump inhibitor


    N-Acetyl L-Cysteine can prevent biofilm formation and is used in some drugs to do so. Boswellic Acid (frankincense) can also combine with NAC to reduce biofilm formation. NAC might be why some people have problems when taking it because it might be affecting the biofilms and increasing large food molecule entry into the blood stream. I stopped using NAC except for when attempting to destroy the infections. I use L-Cysteine for Glutathione rather than NAC as it does not seem to be so troublesome when taken on a daily basis.

    Regarding the Interfase vs plus. One thing I dislike about it is that it is not very specific about the individual enzyme amounts. If the plus is half the price for you, which it is for me then I would go with the plus version due to the big price difference but it does mean using more caps. I doubt that the difference would be 2:1 in enzymes between the two types, it should be a little below that ratio IMO. I also do not use one or two caps and think that they underestimate the quantity needed. Mature and long standing biofilms will require a much more agressive attack against them. I used quite a number when I last used them, I forget how many because it has been quite some time ago approx August last year, it was around 8 to 10 plus serrapeptase and nattokinase. I also broke the caps open and mixed with water so that they were sure to affect where I wanted.

    That might be worth trying yourself because of where Candida tends to set up home. It does tend to share a biofilm with gram negative bacteria. Most people fighting candida use antifungals when they need to be fighting bacteria not realising that the yeast is spreading/seeding from the stomach.

    I dislike taking antimicrobials which are not quickly absorbed and localised in their effect. Colloidal silver is the main one that I use but even that is not very effective against biofilm protected organisms. A simple CS generator can be made with a few simple components such as a current regulating diode and power supply. Making a simple magnetic stirrer from an old PC fan is also possible to keep the price down. Guides and ideas on doing that can be found on youtube.

    Colloidal Silver Document, reviews and ideas on making a generator

    I do have some berberine powder but very rarely use it. I dislike anything with potentially prolonged antibiotic effects in the digestive system. I do not know for certain whether it can affect the commensal bacteria but I suspect that it can like any antibiotic substance which is not quickly absorbed.

    I have not noticed Glutamine raising blood sugar. I am a T1 diabetic so would notice it. However as I mentioned I rarely use it now, I favour Glutamic Acid converted to Glutame to stimulate my brain/nervous system reacted with Magnesium Carbonate. Glutamate tends to balance the calming/sedating effects of the other amino acids. None CFS who eat large protein meals do tend to sleep afterwards due to the sedating effect of the amino acids. I try and counter this with glutamate, aspartic acid and BCAA. Magnesium carbonate is very versatile and can be converted into highly absorbable Magnesium salts fairly easily when mixed in water, it fizzes and turns clear. It's very inexpensive too so great VFM just not quite as convenient as the expensive capsules. I take large amounts of reacted magnesium every day, mag ascorbate, mag gycinate, mag malate, mag citrate and many other Mag amino complexes. The biofilms will steal quite a lot of it for their maintenance and I have some very large biofilms in places where there should not be any ie not the colon.

    Sorry I did not reply to your post previously but it slipped my mind. Basically I forgot.

    Yes they do, they can make a big difference. A multifaceted approach is needed for best effect using QSI, EPI, enzymes and antimicrobials. There can be a considerable amount of microorganisms, they outnumber you by a very large margin and they do not get tired. There will always be a very large number which are at work following those chemical messenges. Stopping their commincation helps considerably, therefore their chemical messages are a key part to beating them. Quorum Sensing encompasses many different processes that microorganisms carry out by signalling. A specific number of organisms inside a biofilm will cause them to release one chemical message to leave the biofilm and spread to other areas. Another will make them strengthen the biofilm. Quorum sensing controls virulence and probably other lesser things which I am not aware ATM. Therefore you should begin to understand that blocking this communication can prevent them from doing unwanted things.

    Even with this they can take some beating. Persister cells if not destroyed can rebuild the colony and biofilm. Those can be very difficult to destroy. My most successful attempt so far against the CFS microorganisms produced a strong discomfort which was fairly close in intensity to the one where I did destroy a large portion of another biofilm. I use that as a guide. That one did heal but not yet back to how it would of been before the infection. Unfortunately I could not of destroyed the persister cells so their biofilm colony was reformed.
     
  10. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    This is a different take on Biofilm that I learned from Anthony William. EBV when active gives off damaging neurotoxins and in the process, a jelly like substance called biofilm forms from the viral debri. This biofilm is like a petri-dish for harmful microorganisms/bacteria and it can also gunk up the work of critical organs. To protect the body, the liver absorbs this biofilm. Vit C in rosehips (most bio-available) has a dissolving effect on biofilm helping to break up deposits. Helpful if person is on anti-viral protocol and low to no fat diet to clean up liver.

    Also according to Anthony candida presents itself when there is an underlying bacteria overload............many times strep bacteria. The candida is there to serve a purpose as it eats the crap that fuels the bacteria........so it is there to help.
     
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  11. sk123

    sk123

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    Interesting. Wow so how would one know if there was any bacteria along with yeast? The Gi effects showed no pathogenic bacteria present. I am taking a lot of Vit c. .Garden of Life brand. I am also on a low carb , mod protein, and moderate fat diet. I cant eat carbs at all without BG going up. Never was a junk food eater so the BG piece is puzzling. Something is junking up the insulin receptors?
     
  12. sk123

    sk123

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    Thank you for all the tips! :)
     
  13. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    The yeast itself is a sign that there is a bacterial overgrowth. The yeast shows up as a defense against the bacteria.

    One needs to go after the bacteria/virus..........not the yeast.

    I know you mentioned testing didn't reveal any pathogenic bacteria but testing ..........whether or not it is for viruses or bacteria can fall short in my book.
     
  14. Rich D

    Rich D

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    I am seeing a doctor now who is attacking this very problem for me. For the candida, he had me take a product called Tanalbit, 3 pills 2x per day between meals. I did this for a couple of months and I noticed a huge difference. After completing that, he had me take a product called Para1 from a company called Cellcore. I am taking a dose of 2 pills 3x per day between meals. It is a heavy dose (you could probably do less). This is for the biofilm, but it also kills of pathogens. I noticed lots of gunk coming out in my poop so I think it works.
     
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  15. Rich D

    Rich D

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    I took a test called GI-Map which uses DNA testing to identify pathogens, including candida, malignant bacteria, viruses, and parasites. Much more reliable than ordinary tests since it is mapping DNA.
     
  16. sk123

    sk123

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    HI Tammy
    Even though GI effects showed no pathogenic bacteria or fungi, I do have high IGG titers to EBV, HHV6, mycoplasma etc. Some docs look at that as just a past infection but recent literature shows if IGG titers are 4 times or so the reference range that it can be an ongoing infection.

    So can I ask how is your doctor tackling the EBV? Any options with herbs instead of strong antivirals? Wouldn't fortifying the immune system be a better strategy so that it can fight off viruses on own instead of going after each single virus?
     
  17. sk123

    sk123

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    HI Rich I did the GI effects which does the PCR testing. Even though I had a n active yeast infection at the time of test, nothing showed up on stool test but on amino acids on nutreval high arabinose was there.
    Interesting products that you mentioned. I have not heard of those before. The tanbilt has a lot of zinc which I am already high in but para1 seems promising. But as Tammy was saying go after the virus or bacteria first, I am curious how exactly that is tackled.
     
  18. vaer

    vaer

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    GI-MAP is by diagnostic solutions. sk you mentioned it to myself in a post not long ago, they have updated it now (same cost) with many more bacterial identifications and now more quantitive ('qPCR') instead of just showing postive or negative result !
     
  19. vaer

    vaer

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    Tumeric + Fluconzaole : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21539505




    It might be best not to take S. Boulardi when on course of Fluconzole as it will reduce boulardi's effectiveness? Boulardii is a fungi in itself
     
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  20. sk123

    sk123

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    Hey Vaer! I was just thinking to check back with you to see which test you chose and how it went? I went with the Gi effects from Genova and was glad to see the commensal bacteria as Bifido ad lactobacilus was low. Nothing else came up on the stool test like pathogenic yeast or bacteria. Did you do the Diagnostics solutions test already?
     

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