• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Ben Goldacre: checking if clinical trials reported what they said they would

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Whoops, he forgot a couple words in his title there:
"Make journals report clinical trials properly (except PACE)"

My impression is that Ben Goldacre may have written his latest piece with the PACE trial in mind, but has generalized his argument, which is probably a smart thing to do, since:

(a) this problem appears to be larger than just an issue with the PACE trial; (b) he probably does not want to get involved in the mud-slinging politics of ME/CFS (the trouble with mud-slinging is that you end up with a lot of mud on you); (c) there is a natural human response that can make us protective of our friends and associates, and Wessely was Goldacre's former boss, and possibly an early mentor.
 
Messages
2,087
My impression is that Ben Goldacre may have written his latest piece with the PACE trial in mind, but has generalized his argument, which is probably a smart thing to do, since:
I don't think so. I just think he is so smug he knows he can say this sort of thing - make himself look good yet not associate himself with PACE in any way.
 
Messages
2,087
I just said that I think he does not want to associate himself with PACE, due to the mud-slinging politics.
Yes I know. But you said he might have wrote it with PACE in mind and you said that was probably smart. I disagree with both those items.
He writes this sort of stuff for a living - the fact that he can write it yet ignore PACE is the issue. In fact I think he might be rubbing our noses in it, sort of saying, is this what you want me to say about PACE, haha I'm not going to.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@BurnA
Have you not previously read that a lot of scientists are put off going into ME/CFS research because of the unpleasant politics? Which is not surprising, since who wants to conduct science and forge a career in a political cesspit?

But if you think throwing yourself into such a cesspit is smart, well then your views are noted.
 
Last edited:

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
We don't know anyone's motives and can only hazard a guess. I think @Hip's using the term impression is more accurate. I like BG more than I don't but like many others in his type of position, he does seem rather smug.

@TiredSam found this gem which is worth repeating.
unsigned rebuttal
:woot::woot:
 
Last edited:
Messages
2,087
@BurnA
Have you not previously read that a lot of scientists are put off going into ME/CFS research because of the unpleasant politics? Which is not surprising, since who wants to conduct science and forge a career in a political cesspit?

But if you think throwing yourself into such a cesspit is smart, well then your views are noted.

I think your wires are crossed. BG is not a scientific researcher. He is not interested in ME research. BG knows all about harrassment because it was on his website an ME patient was harrassed so badly they took legal action and won.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@BurnA
What I am saying is that whenever any doctor, biomedical researcher, journalist, politician, etc takes an interest in ME/CFS, and comes to the support of ME/CFS patients, in spite of the cesspit politics of ME/CFS, and in spite of the fact that so many uncritical medical minds have accepted hook, line and sinker the notion that ME/CFS has a psychological cause, I for one am very grateful.

And I would be immensely pleased if Ben Goldacre did take more interest in exposing the highly dubious evidence base of the PACE trial. However, I can understand why a researcher may shy away from ME/CFS.



BG is not a scientific researcher.

From the intro paragraph in Wikipedia: "he is a Senior Clinical Research Fellow at the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, part of the University of Oxford's Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences."

Ben Goldacre's publications on PubMed (48 to date) are here.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
He writes this sort of stuff for a living - the fact that he can write it yet ignore PACE is the issue. In fact I think he might be rubbing our noses in it, sort of saying, is this what you want me to say about PACE, haha I'm not going to.

Goldacre isn't hesitating to get into a Twitter flame war with Dr Coyne, so he is hardly avoiding confrontation. He's boxing himself into a corner - eventually he will have to shit or get off the pot, perhaps when other academics notice the deafening silence from his corner.
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
Make journals report clinical trials properly
There is no excuse for the shoddy practice of allowing researchers to change outcomes and goals without saying so, says Ben Goldacre.
02 February 2016
http://www.nature.com/news/make-jou...ials-properly-1.19280?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews

Some quotes...

The basics of a rigorous scientific method were worked out many years ago, but there is now growing concern about systematic structural flaws that undermine the integrity of published data: selective publication, inadequate descriptions of study methods that block efforts at replication, and data dredging through undisclosed use of multiple analytical strategies. Problems such as these undermine the integrity of published data and increase the risk of exaggerated or even false-positive findings, leading collectively to the ‘replication crisis’.
If researchers switch from these pre-specified outcomes, without explaining that they have done so, then they break the assumptions of their statistical tests. That carries a significant risk of exaggerating findings, or simply getting them wrong, and this in turn helps to explain why so many trial results eventually turn out to be incorrect.
We expected that journals would take these discrepancies seriously, because trial results are used by physicians, researchers and patients to make informed decisions about treatments. Instead, we have seen a wide range of reactions.
Lives are at stake when subtle statistical signals of benefit and risk are sought in noisy, messy trial data.
 
Messages
2,087
@BurnA
What I am saying is that whenever any doctor, biomedical researcher, journalist, politician, etc takes an interest in ME/CFS, and comes to the support of ME/CFS patients, in spite of the cesspit politics of ME/CFS, and in spite of the fact that so many uncritical medical minds have accepted hook, line and sinker the notion that ME/CFS has a psychological cause, I for one am very grateful.

And I would be immensely pleased if Ben Goldacre did take more interest in exposing the highly dubious evidence base of the PACE trial. However, I can understand why a researcher may shy away from ME/CFS.





From the intro paragraph in Wikipedia: "he is a Senior Clinical Research Fellow at the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, part of the University of Oxford's Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences."

Ben Goldacre's publications on PubMed (48 to date) are here.

We would all be pleased if he did but for 3 years he's been too busy. When are you going to realise he doesn't want to be your friend ?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
We would all be pleased if he did but for 3 years he's been too busy. When are you going to realise he doesn't want to be your friend ?

The world is full of problems. You cannot blame someone just because they don't come to the aid of your particular one.
 
Messages
2,087
The world is full of problems. You cannot blame someone just because they don't come to the aid of your particular one.
I don't blame anyone, but I've said this before- BG makes a lot of money from writing on bad science. It's inexcusable that he is too busy to write about PACE.
 

ukxmrv

Senior Member
Messages
4,413
Location
London
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...tors-career-daily-telegraph-21-december-2011/

"Bad Science’s forum was flooded with 10,000 posts responding to Mr Jones’s initial message in April 2010, it was said. Bad Science is run buy Ben Goldacre, a Guardian columnist."

..........

"Dr Myhill, based in Poways, wales, told the hearing how one patient with chronic fatigue syndrome, also known as ME, killed himself because he mistakenly believed she was no longer able to treat him.

The doctor, whose medical licence has since been restored, said: “Treatment for ME is divided into two camps, psychological and physical. My ways are very simple, including lifestyle changes, many things patients can do themselves.”

Giving evidence, Mr Jones said he deeply regretted any offence caused by his comments. He admits making disparaging comments on Bad Science but denies misconduct or that his fitness to practise is impaired."
 
Last edited: