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Ben Goldacre: checking if clinical trials reported what they said they would

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Simon, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    Its definitly repetitive but I blame the people who disagree with me :rofl:
     
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  2. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

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    Agreed.
    My view is that most of the last nine pages has actually been quite constructive, and bashing someone seems not to have been anyone's priority.
     
  3. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    This twitter feed might be of interest here.
     
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  4. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    If Goldacre doesn't like the game, and hasn't (by his own admission) even been bothered to read the PACE papers, the criticism of them, and taken advice from independent experts on various technical issues, then he should STFU about PACE, that whole area of medicine, and the way patients are responding.

    Can't have it both ways, Mr G. If you are going to comment on it, particularly as somebody with some expertise, then expect some flak if you get it wrong.
     
  5. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    BG has admitted that he expects there are flaws as pointed out to the PACE trial on twitter. I may be paraphrasing wrongly but last I saw JC and BG called a truce.

    There have been so many tweets gone by on the subject it's hard to keep up with what has been said (let alone remember).
    We can be assured that BG is plenty aware of our position. And I agree with others that for now we should take a breather let it sit for a bit and assess what is useful to do moving forward.

    That's not to say that I have a problem with us PR peeps coming here to blow off steam about anything or anyone (within PR forum rules). PR is our space. Some of us are locked up tight as a jail--with very limited outlets. Again, this is our space--if others come here (healthy people) and see people being dissed for not supporting PwME or being hostile or whatever--they're in our space--if they don't like it they can/should leave/grow a thicker skin or change their ways.

    As an addendum--I think we are making some good progress getting others to see the flaws of the PACE trial (thanks JC and DT)
    But there are two sides to this. The other side being that the PACE PI's are very well protected. They lob their assault on us PwME from afar and very secure place. That's partly why they're still at it.

    I believe we need to find a way to put pressure on the people (politicians) protecting them. And that doesn't need to happen alone. There are other groups who suffer as we do from that political self interest.
     
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  6. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    Strange how BG has said he doesn't have time to look at PACE trial yet from his recent letters to NEJM he states :

     
  7. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    ??????

    We don't know BG's overall workload whereas NEJM has editors whose job is to work on such projects.

    A bit harsh. Are we so desperate to criticize him that we are literally grasping at straws when it comes to finding things to be used against him? Do we allow BG bathroom breaks? He could be using that time to work on PACE.

    What he chooses to work on is his business. Yeah it would be great it he would go through PACE but who are we to set his agenda?
     
  8. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    I'm just pointing out the obvious.
    Apologies if it happens to clash with anyone's image of busy Ben ( and his team )

    Have you read the attached ?

    Still think ben is too busy ? Or maybe he doesn't want to upset his friend.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    It's clear that SW has a fixation on Schadenfreude.
    Not everyone is always trying to tear others down or see them embarrassed but for those in positions of authority the adage: To whom much is given much is expected comes to mind.

    SW is among the world population extremely privileged. His work carry's a great deal of weight and even possibly affects many lives so embarrassment is his problem--too bad--if you accept all the kudos, accolades, gifts, honours you have to accept when you're wrong you're going to be called out.

    (I know that wasn't exactly the point of the post PDF post) But it certainly shows his fear of the power of others to call him on this where he must have thought he was untouchable.
     
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  10. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    While BG would be a logical choice as an ally, the fact remains that he is uninterested and I think it would be better to focus our time on new allies, rather than BG.
     
  11. joshualevy

    joshualevy Senior Member

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    I'm not sure that it matters, but this is only part of the work in a COMPare evaluation. First of all, they have two separate people do the work described above, second they have a meeting to compare notes (which involves several people, so even if short takes several person hours), and finally they have various paperwork tasks that need doing. My guess is that "in real life" it takes them four times as long as described above for the whole process.

    If you want, you can try applying COMPare to PACE yourself. Why not? The protocol is on-line and you can even see examples of how they have applied it. But I don't think PACE will fail as spectacularly as many people think. COMPare is very specific that it is OK to change the outcome measures as long as you document the change and justify it. (And my memory is that the PACE authors did a lot of changing and justifying.)

    Although I will say that I did apply COMPare to two studies (in another field), and then I stopped because I did not think it was worth doing. The bottom line is that COMPare measures if researchers reported on what they said they were going to report on, but what I care about more is: did they report the important information? Did they measure what mattered? COMPare doesn't make those kinds of value judgements.
     
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  12. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I wonder how COMPare would assess the inaccurate justifications used by PACE? Or when they were accurate, but justified simply be their preference, eg:

     
  13. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I don't think he is a logical ally. I think it's funny how clearly his professed ideals would seem to lead him to speaking out against PACE, but I don't think that there was ever any chance of him being helpful for patients.
     
  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Agreed. He's always been Wessely's boy.
     
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  15. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    "There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore, smiling. "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."

    :nerd:
     
  16. Chrisb

    Chrisb Senior Member

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    It seems almost as if he continues his enthusiasm for randomisation, as described in Wessely's article, to his choice of subjects for intervention.

    I loved Wessely's title-"Finding the serious in the absurd". He just needs to turn it round and he has the title for his next thoughts on PACE.
     
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  17. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    Toronto, Canada
  18. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    Maybe lure him into a general question about data withholding and spun results, then when he agrees how common it is ask for comment on the PACE trial fiasco.
     
  19. Yogi

    Yogi Senior Member

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    BG claimed to JC on twitter that he had not read the PACE papers. This seems highly unlikely ( he is a liar).

    1. BG is a psychiatrist and should as per good medical practice keep up to date with the field. Although ME is not psychiatric every other psychiatrist has got involved and stuck their noses in ME - why is he the only one not to?

    2. Ask whether he has now read the PACE trial given it is mentioned as one of the biggest medical scandals of bad science and if not why not?

    3. Why is he lecturing around the world on bad science given the PACE trial (epitome of bad science) is in his own backyard when he was at Kings college, London (home to Trudy Chalder and his PHD mentor Simon Wessely)

    4. BG dismissed the PACE scandal as a "spat" and dismissed all concerns by the community as talking of "conspiracy" and he didn't want to get involved. Well ask him if this well referenced and evidence based report can be still dismissed as conspiracy?

    http://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/library/type/pdfs/in-the-expectation-of-recovery.html

    5. Tell BG he is the biggest hypocrite around!
     
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  20. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Seems very likely to me that he'd avoid reading them.

    I don't think he'd want to speak out against PACE, no matter how bad it was, and he has nothing to gain from trying to defend PACE. Not reading them provides a good way of avoiding the controversy.
     

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