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Beginners question about B12.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richarduklon, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. richarduklon

    richarduklon

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    Hi there,

    I've just joined this forum and hoping that I can get some help on behalf of a friend with ME.

    They have asked me to look into B12 supplementation. I initially thought it was a case of purchasing some tablets, but upon reading this forum it seems to be a bit more complicated than this.

    I was wonder if anyone could give a simple version of how best to start supplementation and what would be recommended to use. We are both in the UK and my friend has mentioned that they did test for low B12 levels when they went to Barts hospital in the UK.

    My friend is very weary of their GP and is trying to help themselves without much medical establishment interaction. She's adamant that going to see doctors or having tests will be to much.

    I'm willing read up and research but would like a few pointers on where to start and links to protocols and supplements if possible.

    Many thanks

    Richard
  2. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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  3. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    Very nice of you to help out your friend this way, we could all use friends like that!

    GG
    justy likes this.
  4. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Without going into methylation protocols etc., you can buy sublingual Vitamin B12 in the form of cyanocobalamin, easily from your local health food shop (or on the net).

    I use the one made by Solgar, it's wonderful, (it works for me at any rate). Neither is it expensive, a three month supply is just under £10.

    Within 30 minutes of taking my first one (I had been ill for three years) the feeling of my brain being about to explode with the pressure of trying to think or get a sentance together, or to understand something, just lifted. :angel:

    I had lived with it for the three years, the relief was astounding. It didn't come back either, or only when I was very bad from some overdoings.

    It does not produce this "miracle" for everybody, though, but it's still something really well worth trying.
    It will not cause any harm, but it should be taken early on in the day, or it will interfere with being able to sleep.

    Recently, I had forgotten to take it for a few months. I was going slowly downhill, brain and body, and I started getting a black hairy tongue, oral thrush and deep sores on the roof of my mouth which would not heal...
    had a serious cancer scare over Christmas with it!
    My dentist had mentioned that the thrush could be a vitamin deficiency, so I immediately started my B12 again, and my mouth started to heal. It's perfectly normal now, and my brain and body are starting to improve, albeit far more slowly this time.

    I have all the proof and evidence I need to know this stuff is a miracle for me. And for £10 for three months supply, the bottle sits on my bedside table.

    When my partner wakes up to go to work, I shove one under my tongue and go back to sleep. I've found this to be a very good way of taking it - it should be in contact with the big blood vessels under the tongue for as long as you can manage - some say 40 minutes!
    But if you make a lot of saliva, it can be difficult to keep it going. Going back to sleep seems to cut down the saliva production and I often find tiny bits still there when I wake properly later.
  5. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    I did Methyl B12 injections daily at home for a year. It didn't cure my M.E, but it did help with sympoms, most especially general energy levels improved a bit. I eventually stopped because I wasn't getting any further benefit.

    I had mine prescribed by Dr Myhill (you have to be a patient and she does phone consults)

    Dr M supplied the B12, the needles and then I got disposal box from the GP surgery and the nurse at the GP surgery showed me how to self inject into fat layer on the stomach or hip - it wasn't hard or painful. I highly recommend it. If not then some people find sublingual works fine. Unfortunately they did nothing for me.

    All the best.
    Justy
  6. richarduklon

    richarduklon

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    Many thanks for all your replies.

    Apart for the B12, would it be wise to take folate and a potassium supplement with the B12 as well?

    I'm trying to make sense of it all and reading other posts it seems that theses are recommended as well. From what I've gathered it also best to start at a lower dose and work your way up.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  7. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I'm a noob here, but have been a sojourner in natural health/supplements for several decades. I've tried tons and tons of stuff. I've chelated, detoxed, sauna'd, cold water therapy'd, done high colonics, tried Pritikin, paleo, Atkins, Zone, blah, blah blah. ;)

    To answer your question: I think it depends on what your friend wants to accomplish. Best to present him/her with all the facts/ramifications of taking these supplements and then let him/her decide.

    Adding methylfolate can add a whole 'nother dimension to healing, but cause another set of short-term symptoms/problems that, if the person is not ready to deal with these, could result in a negative experience and in them turning away from this great supplement.

    However, as testimonials from this board convinced me, and now some bit of personal experience as well, using the information on this board can also help you feel significantly better, in a very short time. But you have to be willing to listen to your body, adjust dosages of things, spend a little money, and most importantly, educate yourself. IMO no one can really tell you what to do with these supplements...a lot of it you have to be willing to try on your own.

    I hope that makes sense. Not to scare you off from helping your friend at all...that's just a caution. My short experience in using methylfolate and these other supplements lets me know they are very beneficial...and also powerful. I've been able to jump in with both feet because I've been on the road that led me to this forum for years. But If I hadn't prepped I may not have had such a good experience right off the bat. Like with most powerful things, if you're not prepared/educated to handle them, it may not go properly for you. Or rather, for your friend, if s/he is not prepared.

    Knowing what I know now, I would be very hesitant to urge another person to take methylfolate unless I was absolutely certain I knew that person would follow through. I *definitely* would *not* discourage them from making their own choice to take it...rather, I would try to help them with some friendly advice. But I would not want to be responsible for them to begin it at my urging. And I would not want to be responsible for telling them to take it without them being educated a bit first. When you advise someone what to take when it is not their idea you are in some ways responsible for the outcome. With methylfolate getting through to the good side can be difficult if someone is very ill.

    That said, even if there are difficult side effects, from what I understand there is little if any danger to taking any of the supplements. The worst that could happen if you told your friend to take methylfolate is that your friend might not like you as much if there are any side-effects. :D

    Search for posts by forum member Freddd for more info on taking folate and all the co-factors. The two sticky threads at the top of the "Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation" forum (where you originally posted) give good information, although the supplement recommendations are a little dated. After you've read some more, then start asking questions. It will come clearer with time and you'll have a better picture of what to tell your friend.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I'm going to keep this simple and just concentrate on B12. (B12 is part of a methylation protocol, which gets way way more complicated). If your friend tested low in B12, then it's a no brainer to supplement, as a starting place.

    There are four forms of B12 - cyanocobalamin (synthetic), hydroxycobalamin, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.

    If you have certain gene mutations, your body will have a hard time converting cyanocobalamin. So it's best to take one or more of the active forms, hydroxy, methyl, and/or adenosyl.

    Hydroxy converts to both methyl and adenosyl. Some people have trouble converting or tolerating hydroxy. In that case, you would simply take methy and adenosyl.

    However, due to certain other gene mutations, others have trouble tolerating methylcobalamin, as it's already converted and may shoot through the body too fast, causing mood swings.

    So my basic suggestion, would be to start with hydroxycobalamin and see how that goes. Then if that's not tolerated, try methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.

    The next issue is that all B12 is not created equal. The method of transfer into the body is very important. Oral B12 tablets are virtually useless, as only 1-2% gets absorbed. So you need to bypass the stomach. Either an injection or a sublingual pill or liquid will accomplish this. Also some brands are more effective than others.

    Freddd has figured out which sublingual pills are most effective. I'm not sure if it's on that long thread link that someone gave you or not. He changed brands a year or so ago and I don't remember the new one off the top of my head.

    I'm successfully using Douglas Labs methylcobalamin liquid and Yasko's adenosylcobalamin liquid. Yasko also makes hydroxy and methylcobalamin. http://www.holisticheal.com/ I think that's one of the few places you can get hydroxy and adenosyl in liquid form.

    Then the other thing is to Start Low and Go Slow, as ME patients can be very sensitive. So don't start with a full dose. You can easily dilute liquids with water to a lesser concentration, which is one reason I prefer them. The other reason is that you only have to hold it under your tongue for 30 seconds, so it's more convenient.

    If you want to learn more about methylation and how B12 and folate fits into this, then start with the Methylation Made Easy videos in my signature links.
  9. richarduklon

    richarduklon

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    I have been researching postson the forum and have made some choices to present to my friend. I’ve outlined my shopping list candidates and reasoning for it based on what I’ve read so far. I’m not a scientist or GP but my work requires research and problem solving and providing solutions.


    Preparation and support supplements


    • B complex

    • Potassium

    B12 supplements


    Have looked at various supplements and have picked out a few


    Vitasorb


    https://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/vitasorb-b12-15ml-p-254.html


    This is in the form of Hydroxycobalamine.


    • Need to be converted, so may not be so fast acting for a sensitive person

    • Is only 50mcg per 10 drops so maybe easier to start small doses and work up to a higher amount. Possibly change to a stronger brand once tolerance is met

    • 35 doses of 10 drops, so 1750 mcg of B12 in a bottle.

    • It may not be tolerated or it may not be absorbed since HyCbl IS DEPENDENT UPON MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-methylfolate http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/


    So the intention here is to start small and work up the dosage with form of B12 that should not act too fast into the system.


    However there seems to be a concern that the use of Hydroxycobalamine can cause B12 deficiency if the person can’t convert.


    http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/#b12-deficiency


    If tolerance is ok on Hydroxycobalamine or no affect then the next form of B12 to consider.


    Country Life, Gluten Free, Methyl B12, Cherry Flavour, 1000 mcg, 60 Lozenges


    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Country-Life-Gluten-Methyl-Lozenges/dp/B00DQ9FDEK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=25IHI57ICPPWI&coliid=I1CAIRYUH3YCK5


    Stronger dose of B12 supplement in the form of methylcobalamin


    It seems that Country Life would be a good next level since reading on this forum it seems to be recommended and is easy to buy in the UK

    • Active form of B12
    • Since there are 60 lozenges, so a potential 2000 mcg a day for a month’s supply
    • I assuming that they can be quartered to start with the treatment at 250 mcg
    • May take a while to absorb in the mouth
    • Methylcobalamin is active and will bypass the normal conversion process. However this could be overwhelming for sensitive people.
    Pure Advantages methylcobalamin. Alternative B12 supplement

    This seems to be an easy to take supplement of the active B12

    https://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/vitamin-b12-spray-from-methylcobalamin-1oz-p-376.html

    • 500 mcg per spray so can start at a smaller dosage and dilute

    • Quicker to absorb than lozenges
    Since the above B12 may not have an effect this could be due to other factors contributing to malabsorption

    Second active form of B12

    If tolerance to methylcobalamin has been reached then the next form of B12 to add would be.

    ADENOSYL B12 MEGA DROPS™ 15 mL (.5 fl.oz)

    http://www.holisticheal.com/adenosyl-12-mega-drops.html

    As well as methylcobalamin, there could also be a dibencozide deficiency and could also inhibit absorbing of both active forms of B12

    • Very potent and would need diluting

    • Would last a long time
    This is it so far. I’m still reading about the other supplement such as folate and L-Carnitine fumarate.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014

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