The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
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Bee and Wasp Spray exposure... ideas for removal?

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by Viking, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. Viking

    Viking

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    I had a lawn worker spray the side of my house and my bushes with a bee and wasp spray. The treated area is just outside my bedroom window.

    Does anyone know how to effectively remove / wash off such a spray? Or how long until is dissipates by rain / sunshine etc. I have had severe reactions in the past to even very low level pesticide exposure.

    Are pesicides like that easily washed off? are they even water soluble?

    Active ingredients....
    Permethrin
    Tetramthrin
    Piperonyl Butoxide

    Regards,
    Viking
     
  2. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    Don't know for sure but I'd say just hose it down to dilute it.
     
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Use a water bleach mixture, but maybe get someone else to do it. Bleach chemically inactivates most of these kinds of things.
     
  4. Toxed

    Toxed Certified in Environmental Medicine, ATSDR

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    Eeek! No, don't use bleach! Don't use plain water! You need a de-greaser, those insecticides contain petroleum based "inerts." Bleach will volatize the toxins amd its a neurotoxin, water will spread them. If you're sensitive, have someone else wash it down with a lot of degreaser (AFM Superclean) in water. It takes at least 2 months for that to dissapate after the wash. In the future, mix up a quart spray bottle of water with organic essential mint and sweet orange. You can spritz it on the wall yourself, if those don't bother you. If you're too sensitive to apply it, have some one else do it. Never use a pesticide. All pesticides are poison!
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Bleach is the global method for detoxing neurotoxins. Its used in chemical warfare situations including chemical weapon attacks, and everywhere else, and is effective against pesticides. It does not take much. Bleach biochemically inactivates most of these kinds of agents. Given that some of us do not tolerate bleach either, I suggested that someone else do it. Bleach will rapidly degrade and dissipate, so after a day or two it should no longer be a problem. Nor will the toxins.

    Water will disperse the toxins to a wider area and into the ground. I suspect degreaser will do the same but will add even more chemicals to the mix.
     
    alkt likes this.
  6. Toxed

    Toxed Certified in Environmental Medicine, ATSDR

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    Respectfully, I must disagree. Bleach may be "the global method" but it isn't safe for people with chemical hypersensitivity. In fact the experts say this,

    "Some have recommended a 10:1 solution of household bleach (0.5% sodium hypochlorite). The reasoning for this is that this solution is alkaline and organophosphorus compounds hydrolyze faster at an alkaline pH. (Leikin, Thomas et al. 2002) One concern about the use of bleach is that it injures skin or eyes, facilitating absorption of the toxicant. Another issue is that bleach solution has to be freshly made daily or it loses its potency. (Levitin, Siegelson et al. 2003) Hurst warns against the use of hypochlorite in abdominal or open-chest wounds, on exposed nervous tissue, or in the eye. (Hurst 1997)

    Others have reported that water or soapy water is very effective. (Trapp 1985)" ATSDR Chemical Monograph: chlorinesterase inhibitors (bolding mine)

    So bleach from the jug, not very effective. Notice that the quote also says "The reasoning for this..." They didn't actually do any testing. Nor did they test for synergistic effects of the bleach and neurotoxins... They just assumed, because they thought one, not very relevant, aspect seem to make sense, and because it doesn't hurt them. How many times have we (the chemically sensitive) been hurt by that logic? It is not "effective against pesticides." There has been no actual testing. I know from personal experience that I can still detect/react to bleaches dispersed on the ground and in laundry etc more than a month after use. It bonds to soil then re-disperses slowly. Bear in mind that you will still react to it, even if you can't detect it yourself. Spreading toxins to a wider area on the ground just makes more opportunities she'll get exposed. It will be volatizing from the entire area. If its sand, it will move into the soil faster, in clay soils it will remain at the surface longer. AFM Superclean is non-toxic. Its made for the chemically sensitive.
     
  7. beaker

    beaker ME/cfs 1986

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    Bees of all kind are horribly endangered. There has recently been some laws passed to help save them. They pollinate 80% of the food we eat.
    Please avoid spraying them at all cost. You can use peppermint oil or orange oil to keep them away. There are other methods that my brain can't remember now. Easy enough to google.

    I know it's too late now. No advice for current. Just best to avoid in the future.
     
    Toxed likes this.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    All of the contraindications for bleach are for ways it should not be used, though its obvious that anyone with specific sensitivities should not use what they are sensitive to. Bleach is not safe for direct use on skin to treat medical conditions.
     
  9. Toxed

    Toxed Certified in Environmental Medicine, ATSDR

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    In normals... The chemically sensitive will react from a distance, as if it was directly applied. It is a toxic VOC. As it volatizes it will be inhaled, and it will be deposited on the skin and absorbed. It is not safe for the chemically sensitive.

    The other relevant thing is that the ingredients that were originally asked about are not chemical warfare nerve agents. They are permethrin, tetramthrin and piperonyl butoxide (BPO).

    BPO is a petroleum product. It won't breakdown w/o degreaser. Its acutely toxic.

    "PBO acts as a synergist by inhibiting the activity of a family of enzymes called P450s. These enzymes have many functions, including breakdown of toxic chemicals and transformation of hormones.

    Symptoms of PBO exposure include nausea, diarrhea, and labored breathing. "

    And permethrin sprays include "inerts" including this sample from the same paper

    "Pyrenone® Crop Spray (EPA Reg. No. 432-1033) and Prentox® PyronylTM Fogging & Contact Spray (EPA Reg.
    5,6. No. 655-675) contain a petroleum solvent. The solvent is called hydrotreated kerosene and its Chemical Abstract Service number is 64742-47-8.7 This solvent has caused skin tumors when applied to the skin of labora- tory mice.8 Exposure to this solvent also causes dizziness, nausea, and headache. Breathing droplets of this solvent can cause aspiration pneumonia.6"Pesticide Fact Sheet Caroline Cox

    Permerthrin

    "Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin. Symptoms include tremors, incoordination, elevated body temperature, increased aggressive behavior, and disruption of learning. Laboratory tests suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic to children than to adults... Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, kills insects by strongly exciting their nervous systems. Permethrin makes the nervous system hypersenstitive to stimuli from sense organs. Rather than sending a single impulse in response to a stimulus, permethrin-exposed nerves send a train of impulses. This excitation occurs because permethrin blocks the movement of sodium ions from outside to inside of the nerve cells. Permethrin’s mode of action is similar to that of the organochlorine insecticide DDT.5 "
    Pesticide Fact Sheet, Caroline Cox

    Inert ingredients are commonly petroleum based. These chemicals need degreaser. Bleach is not effective and it is harmful.
     

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