BBC TV: The stories of five ME sufferers, their descent into illness and quest...

[Firestormm]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/h...ft-her-bedridden-and-in-agony-86908-23722477/

Another MT story from the same paper. My concern would be that this 'therapy' dominates Part II of the programme which was billed as being the scientific part (?!).

If people come away from watching the programme thinking MT is the 'only' thing worth trying that might help then that would constitute bias and an unfair representation in my view.

I had hoped that MT would be shown as something tried by people who are desperate to try anything, given that so little is available from the NHS or by way of treatment generally.

Still, I shall try and keep an open-mind until I watch the programme on Monday night (or Tuesday on iPlayer).

N.B. I don't begrudge anyone trying anything that is safe and is deemed to 'help'. I've done enough in my desperation over the years. But until such time as this condition is better understood and better diagnosed, as well as these supposed 'treatments' better subjected to scientific scrutiny, then I don't think anyone can claim any 'success' when marketing them.

 

[Valentijn]

I thought it was pretty good so far, though I didn't see part 3 of it on youtube. The one that recovered was male, which probably tipped the odds in his favor, despite being a moron and thinking that determination cures diseases. I recall him saying that he recovered to 90% pretty quickly, then got the rest of the way by exercising.

I don't think they showed both the women leaving the house? The brunette in her kitchen mentioned that she couldn't leave the house every day, and had spent the previous day resting just to prepare for the visit. The ex-cop was a good one too I think, even though he was fairly mobile and able to do walks about the village. His interview emphasized the OI aspect, as well as that his condition was slowly degrading, despite the walks and his strong work ethic and determination.

I guess they had 1 recovered case, a couple mild-moderate, and a couple moderate-severe. But no outright severe cases, which would have balanced it better.

I'm also very curious to see how Mickel therapy works for them, especially with a long-term followup. I'd think a lot of short-term results are a result of self-delusion and/or temporary pushes resulting in eventual PEM or regression.

 

[Vitalic]

Revealing excerpt from the MT website:

In short, the body is an intelligent part of us all. It is this intelligence that produces emotions and not our cognitive faculties as many schools of thought suggest. When we look at humans from an energetic perspective we can begin to see that we are made up of several layers of energetic fields, or info-energy fields. The body is one of these and is closely linked to our physical body (itself an energy field). So any changes in the energy contained in a given situation affects our energy field and that of our physical cells. This is discussed in Dr Mickels book as vibration.

This alteration in vibration is the root cause of the cellular disturbance that creates many of our dis-eases. Unfortunately many areas of health care focus on the effects of this at cell level and therefore miss the important root cause body e-motion or energy-in-motion.

Mickel Therapy is designed to work with the body intelligence and the effects it has on cellular function. The client is shown how to apply this to Chronic fatigue Syndrome, M.E, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, De-pression, Anxiety, and many other physical conditions.

I also saw various invocations of quantum physics to support their notion of body energy. That is always the litmus test for bullshit, as Richard Feynman once said if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics. If any of this stuff had been demonstrated it would be worthy of the nobel prize for physics, and yet we have some guy claiming to have solved all these problems without a single link to a peer-reviewed study whatsoever. It looks like just another opportunistic huckster milking desperate people for all their worth, those who recover following it most likely were not even ill in the first place.

 

[anniekim]

Apparently the programme makers asked for a severe person to appear on the show but not surprisingly no one did. I haven't watched it yet but will. The brunette is Nasim Marie jaffry who wrote a brilliant novel about m.e. it's called 'state of m.e' and well worth a read

Edit: duh, see Firestorm had already shared a person with severe m.e was asked to feature in the show but no one came forward

 

[Tia]

[video=youtube;bB6B2BTL2zQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB6B2BTL2zQ[/video]

The whole video, an hour long, enjoy!

 

[alex3619]

That is always the litmus test for bullshit, as Richard Feynman once said if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics.

Hi Vitalic, I studied a little quantum physics and to this day I am still baffled. Einstein couldn't get his head around it either. Quantum physics is for serious physicists. I like that comment from Feynman. Bye, Alex

 

[Vitalic]

Hi Vitalic, I studied a little quantum physics and to this day I am still baffled. Einstein couldn't get his head around it either. Quantum physics is for serious physicists. I like that comment from Feynman. Bye, Alex

Not even serious physicists can understand it intuitively, and they will tell you that themselves, we did not evolve to understand it - the only way to truly understand it is via the mathematics that underpins it which makes predictions more precise than anything else in science. All I know for sure is that when you see someone claiming that quantum physics is somehow evidence in support of a claim that is not backed up by extremely rigorous and precise measurements you can safely assume they don't have the first clue what they are talking about, it is a common trend in new age circles now to invoke quantum mechanics whenever they want to show that reality is mysterious, as if this somehow lends credibility to their crazy nonsense.

I did watch the video with David Mickel explaining his theory and to be fair it's slightly more reasonable than the typical bio-psycho-social hogwash, he at least believes HPA axis dysfunction is the underlying cause and some of the associations he draws seem plausible, but still somehow believes talking therapies are the best way forward.

 

[Firestormm]

The Toxic Tiredness Part II BBC iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01b1z0l

'In the second episode of a two part special, Trusadh takes a deeper look into the world of ME (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis), the debilitating disease that affects more than 250,000 people in the UK. Scientific opinion is split as to the origins and nature of the illness, and the best way to approach treatment.

The episode focuses on the controversial work of a David Mickel, a Scottish doctor who believes he has found the 'cure' to ME - a talking therapy which addresses an imbalance in the emotional centre of the brain. He has no scientific proof, but claims an astonishing success rate.

We follow two patients as they undergo his therapy, and hear a very different perspective on the illness from neurologist, Prof. Peter Behan, who carried out groundbreaking studies on ME at the Southern General Hospital in Glasgow.

The stakes are high for the ME sufferers Allison MacColl from Ness in Lewis and Kim Ayres from Castle Douglas in Dumfriesshire. Both have suffered from ME for many years and have had their lives turned upside down. Both were resigned to life with an illness that, even now, some doctors do not believe in.

The ME Association, the charity which represents sufferers in the UK, is highly skeptical. Can Allison and Kim dare to hope?'

 

[justy]

Just watched this. Interesting that the photographer, Kim, claimed that it had helped but he wasn't cured, whereas Dr Mickel described Kim as haveing made a really good recovery. Dr Mickel did make it sound so plausible that i have just spent the rest of the afternoon researching Mickel therapy - am slightly put off by the idea that the nurse just needed a bit more time for herself to get well again - or that it was harder for her as she had kids. The trouble is that lots of people have kids and dont do what their heart tells them to do, but they dont get 'stuck' in 'Hypothalamitis'
I'm not sure what to make of it. At least the programme did interview people such as Dr Behan who said that stuff like Mickel therapy was nonsense and that their was definate mitochondrial involvement in M.E as well as other abnormal biological markers (he treated Dr Charles Sheppard of the M.E assocaition)
I read a blog this afternoon of someone who dod it for 9 months - they didnt get better in fact they got worse and then gave up. There seems to be an awful lot of introspection involved in looking at your symptoms and working out what they are telling you (emotionally) and what you should be doing about it. i.e - if you always said what you felty and did what you wanted you would be better. I have heard of two people on other forums who claim to have been sectioned becasuse it made them go crazy with constantly looking at themselves and trying to sort them selves out.
Why then does a part of me still think it MIGHT help - am i mad?!
What do you think? Justy.

 

[Firestormm]

Certainly not mad Justy.

In part it is like Kim was saying isn't it? There's this 'thing' out there and you hear from anecdotal reports that it 'works' and you have to decide 'Do I try it and risk disappointment and losing all that cash? Or do I give it a miss and live with the possibility it could have helped?'

Hard choices sometimes and I think this is where some 'practitioners' can get you over a barrel. This idea of the 'fight or flight' and emotional responses being out of whack with your body's demands - is nothing new. I did something similar to Mickel Therapy when living in Jersey.

I was in freak-out mode at the time after a second relapse if I recall, and basically a nervous wreck. Life falling to bits etc. Anyway, I gave up on the 'therapy' which caused me to examine my life and essentially see if I was to 'blame' for reacting the way I was to it all (like I wasn't doing that already ) - and I stumbled on without it.

Once you get through the fear and the worry (not that you ever shed it completely) and gain some acceptance as well as I think perspective on your 'new' life - the 'fight or flight' with me anyway seems to be less of a concern. Needless to say my 'ME' hasn't gone away but I won't be rushing off to buy Mickel Therapy either.

There was a lot said in that programme about it that perhaps warrants a transcript. Did you hear mention of 'belief' and 'faith' from Holly? It's one of those things that requires you to believe and if it doesn't 'work' I would imagine you are told 'try harder'.

Also, notice how the number of 'successful' anecdotal patients kept increasing throughout the programme? What was it - 4,000 - 4,500 - 5,000 - 5,000 +

I think Behan had it right and I am pleased he was there - would like to have heard more from him - and also Dr Shepherd. Even that Psychology Professor made sense. Without them it would have been terrible I think.

 

[justy]

Yes Firestormm i agree, without the other Drs for some small amount of perspective i think this second part would have been a complete waste of time. Thanks for putting it in perspective and sharing soemthing of your story. Yes i was a nervous wreck in the beginning as well, and for many years told i had just anxiety. Being told that by Doctors really didnt help and the first time i went inot remmission i really believed it was because i had just been nervous;ly ill and managed to recover. The intervening years of remmissison and continuing ill health however, with no anxiety proved to me that there was something more amiss. 3 years ago i caught measles and became seriously ill - the anxiety only came on from trying to go to work in the winter as a gardener with pneumonia! Now for me the flight or fight response is also low, but i am still ill. I keep it low by not overdoing etc. I am also feeling pretty happy and emotionally balanced, despite being mainly housebound and i wouldnt want to jeopordise that with endless introspection.
All the best, Justy.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Mickey Mouse Therapy, indeed!
Load of balls

If you reduce stress, of ANY form (stressors, emotional, mental exercise, physical exercise, injury, poison or infection), reducing ANY of those helps
ME= at least partially autoimmune, any stress exacerabtes it, sometimes leading to a proverbial "perfect storm", spiralling out of control.
Infection/toxin seems worst, which is logical.
Emotional upset is terribly distressing but it's not in same league.

And every time, near enough, I hear "Oh someone's cured!" by talking therapies etc...not long after they releapse
you don't bloody cure Multiple Sclerosis etc by TALKING about it, but you can help folk cope and reduce stress etc, helping them.

A hot shower/bath takes away lof of the pain/sickness for a few hours for me, eases the "fatigue" but sure as hell doens't stop it.
I suggest THAT is better than "talking therapies"

Ah well, each to his own, folk wanna try this so why not?
Put pushing it like this as the ONLY "cure" is a gawd damn OUTRAGE, WTH is Medical *SCIENCE*?
bloody Medieval pissants is what it's like
"Arrr, there be a new pox on the loose! Good sermon n' some whippin' will drive that demon out n' make you well again, says the parson!"

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft! says Silverblade!

 

[Guido den Broeder]

The one that recovered was male, which probably tipped the odds in his favor, despite being a moron and thinking that determination cures diseases. I recall him saying that he recovered to 90% pretty quickly, then got the rest of the way by exercising. (...)

At that point I stopped watching. The whole thing didn't feel right.

 

[Vitalic]

Just watched this. Interesting that the photographer, Kim, claimed that it had helped but he wasn't cured, whereas Dr Mickel described Kim as haveing made a really good recovery. Dr Mickel did make it sound so plausible that i have just spent the rest of the afternoon researching Mickel therapy - am slightly put off by the idea that the nurse just needed a bit more time for herself to get well again - or that it was harder for her as she had kids. The trouble is that lots of people have kids and dont do what their heart tells them to do, but they dont get 'stuck' in 'Hypothalamitis'
I'm not sure what to make of it. At least the programme did interview people such as Dr Behan who said that stuff like Mickel therapy was nonsense and that their was definate mitochondrial involvement in M.E as well as other abnormal biological markers (he treated Dr Charles Sheppard of the M.E assocaition)
I read a blog this afternoon of someone who dod it for 9 months - they didnt get better in fact they got worse and then gave up. There seems to be an awful lot of introspection involved in looking at your symptoms and working out what they are telling you (emotionally) and what you should be doing about it. i.e - if you always said what you felty and did what you wanted you would be better. I have heard of two people on other forums who claim to have been sectioned becasuse it made them go crazy with constantly looking at themselves and trying to sort them selves out.
Why then does a part of me still think it MIGHT help - am i mad?!
What do you think? Justy.

He's a good salesman that's for sure, he is showing the GET advocates how it should be done. Make the patients believe they are actually being taken seriously and still get them to pay extortionate fees for useless talking therapies.

 

[Wonko]

MT looks perfect for cleaning a well known brand of american motorcycle.

 

[currer]

In my opinion these programmes are just propaganda, put out by the BBC in a cynical exercise to imply to us and the population at large that the government are interested and well meaning in trying to "understand" ME.

Following the immense publicity given to the "death threats to researchers" propaganda ON THE BBC against ME sufferers who wish to see proper medical investigation of their illness, I have no faith in the good intentions of the British government or the BBC towards ME.

I believe there is a deliberate campaign in Britain to keep ME "mysterious" and uninvestigated because of fear of the health and welfare costs associated with recognising it as a real physical disease and also because of longstanding fears of the association between vaccination and the !0% that develop ME following vaccination - which the DOH does not want publicly recognised.

Such BBC programmes are carefully designed to maintain the ignorance associated with our disease and to ensure that it will not be taken seriously.

On another internet site I have seen posts from a severe sufferer who contacted the BBC to participate in the programme, but was not used. And yet they claim that no severe sufferer approached them for inclusion in the film.

I believe they wanted to show ME as a mild disorder, responding to quack "therapies" in this programme.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

MT looks perfect for cleaning a well known brand of american motorcycle.

Hm? alas I don't get that (harley Davidson, but why to clean them??)

what I was thinking was....why would you use a load of horse s**t (MT) to "clean" a perfectly good motorbike?


Currer
alas, I agree with ya, program went from "interesting" to "You are a Number of the Village!" routine as per bloody usual

 

[Wonko]

harley davidsons ar also known as hogs

I also agree with Currer

 

[Holmsey]

I'm afraid I fall into the 'BBC = Government' lobby as well, the BBC is and always will be a propoganda machine.

Don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but you only have to watch the BBC news to see it's not about information but 'education' or even 'indoctrination'.

I see how it works within the large corporation I work for, someone high up with an agenda 'suggest' something would be good if done, people keen to rise pick up on it and start out with good intentions but before long they're shaping it around 'constructive critisisms' that further feed the agenda. It's all agenda, at the bottom you want to get on so you suspend rational thought and just do what you think is wanted of you, that's your agenda, to rise highter. At the other end you find that what's wanted of you is to present a particual view or picture, the corporate agenda.

I'd love to know more about the severe sufferer who offered to take part and was rejected, sounds to me like their story should be made widely available and followed up if necessary, the BBC uses our taxes, sorry couldn't resist it but come on who thinks the licence fee is anything other than tax.

 

[justy]

Some good points on here so far.
What i would like to know is, if Mickel therapy really works and Dr Mickel is a practising GP, then why does he not do it for free or at least low cost - why the extortionate price - then we could all do it and be cured. Isnt that what he wants? or is it our money? Hmm. seems fishy to me. I mean i can sort of understand happening upon a cure for something and wanting to have some financial recognition, But...

Also would be interested to know what a wide range of top neurologists think about his idea of HYpothalamitis -does it fly?
Justy.