The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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BBC article: Mental illness sufferer's fight for right to die in Canada

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by TiredSam, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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  2. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    Sad.

    Echoes of ME.

    I can't help but think that he didn't have somatoform disorder.

    Just because physicians couldn't find a biological cause of his bodily pain, does not mean it did not exist. We are in the infancy of understanding the body and its arrogant for physicians to think otherwise, and harmful to label symptoms that are not understood, as psychological in origin.
     
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  3. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    What i think is that this is incredibly complicated for all the wrong reasons.

    Adam had what they called a mental illness, which is just a (false) label, he was not suffering from depression or a psychological illness he had a physical condition caused by the brain. Much like we would not call a brain tumour a mental illness pain caused by a malfunctioning brain is not mental illness. Its also an invisible condition which makes things harder to see clearly.
    He should have been allowed to end his life legally. The current Canadian legislation is idealized 1970s values passed into law in 2016.

    Medicine does have a long way to go, modern medicine is only now beginning to get to an advanced level, we know much more compared to just 100 years ago but the adage half of what you learn in medical school will later be proven wrong is probably still very true today :bang-head:

    As for the people who wanted to commit suicide but changed their minds, having a sense of control over one's life and destiny is important for all humans, we all want to be have control instead of being controlled. Its a sidetrack from the real issues.

    When it comes to actual mental illnesses we are wedded to the biochemical crap (backed up by bad path dependent medicine and drug company money) claiming depression and anxiety and so on are caused by "biochemical imbalances" hence need to be treated with drugs that are a solution looking for a problem (uppers). And in situations where they don't work (because they are based on lies) some victims want to (understandably) commit suicide. Instead we need to accept that uppers can chase symptoms away at best and if it fails its not because the problem is untreatable but because modern medicine has fallen victim to the streetlight effect. Drugs are not the answer to psychological problems, counseling is, and not the CBT crap which is a step beyond Freud which makes sense for robots stuck in a feedback loop, not humans who have lost hope, are lonely or have suffered from abandonment or abuse.
    This better treatment is available but more complicated and harder to access. It needs to be very personalized and costs more (upfront, its actually cheaper long term).

    I don't support legalized suicide for mental illness because we are treating it incorrectly. In principle everyone should have the right to end their life if they wish but lying to people, giving them sham treatments leading them believe they can't be helped and then kill themselves is unacceptable. If we admitted the truth and made proper treatment widely available and people with mental illness still wish to end their lives i would be more supportive but its still tricky because in general proper treatment would help patients find the hope and happiness to live but counseling is not a take a drug and feel "better", its a process and it can take time and going to many counselors to find the person a client bonds with (and some people give up very prematurely, the first counselor doesn't work out, so they refuse to seek out another). As someone once said (paraphrased) treating despair is not about the chemistry of drugs but about the chemistry of human relationships.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  4. lauluce

    lauluce as long as you manage to stay alive, there's hope

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    Hoe many doctors you need to change a light bulb? one, to tell the people in the house that the darkness is just in their heads and they should look for psychological treatment. Actually the light bulb is never changed
     
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  5. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda thebiochemcorner.com

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    I saw you write before that depression has nothing to do with the body's biochemistry. Do you have any evidence or references on that?
    Our brains are dependent on our body's biochemistry just like the rest of our body. I don't know what makes you think that a depression definitely has a sole psychological cause and can be treated only by talking in every case.
     
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  6. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    A great deal actually, you can read books by authors like Peter Breggin, William Glasser, you can google the long history and successes of one on one and group therapy (Irvin Yalom comes to mind).

    There are situations where psychological problems are caused by other factors causing legitimate brain damage leading to problems, brain tumors, injuries (such as concussion), stroke, amphetamines, Parkinsons, Alzheimers, hormonal problems etc. None of these would be properly treated with antidepressants, if you had a brain injury you treat the injury instead of pretending SSRIs are the answer

    Some links from a quick google search
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...es-depression-myths-about-chemical-imbalances

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-depression-just-bad-chemistry/

    https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...ness_is_chemical_imbalance_theory_a_myth.html

    https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05...epression-still-promoted-but-still-unfounded/

    http://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety/chemical-imbalance.shtml
     
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  7. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda thebiochemcorner.com

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    These are no scientific studies that definitely state that there is a) no positive effect of antidepressants on people with depression nor b) that biochemical imbalances are not involved in mental illness.

    Some articles even concede that antidepressants help many people with depression but the mechanism is yet unclear. They may not be a perfect solution, but until there is a better alternative, they still help many people.

    For me it is out of the question that biochemical processes play a role in mental illness and I find it highly questionable to look at an illness from the outside, with a one-sided view of facts and imply that all people with depression should be able to resolve their disease completly with counselling and 'regulating their emotions', like stated in one article.
     
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  8. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Absolutely mind blowing and brings up all sorts of issues. I could go on but it doesn't seem that this young man had a mental illness. Very sad.
     
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  9. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    Alternative version: How many doctors does it take to change a light bulb? Umpteen if they are psychiatrists seeking esoteric reasons why it needs changing. Otherwise just one doctor who spots that the real problem is the switch needs turning on, and starts looking for how to do that.
     
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  10. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    I think endogenous depression is a biological illness that's poorly understood,probarbly involves the immune system
     
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  11. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    Our consciousness is biological, our brain is biological. Our heart is an organ, our brain is an organ. When hearts get sick its "heart disease", when livers get sick its "liver disease" - When brains get sick its "mental illness". Yah whatever, lets call heart disease "love disease" then u wishywashys
     
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  12. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    I find this funny, we have to disprove self serving corporate propaganda campaigns [facepalm]
    This is a great example of Russell's teapot
    Someone posted in a different thread that its up to scientists to disprove snake oil salesmens and not up to snake oil salesmen to prove their shams work. Was it the $90,000 stem cell treatment thread?
    Grifters rejoice!
     
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  13. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I would respectfully disagree with the statement about scientists having to prove or disprove what quacks say. When snake oil is promoted, it's up to the quacks to prove what they are saying. Otherwise, scientists would be wasting time and money on testing things that are not even plausible.

    This seems to be what Russell's teapot is saying.

    In the states we have The National Center of Complementary and Alternate medicine (NCAM) which has wasted millions of dollars on studies of treatments that do not have a priori or low probability that the hypothesis is true.. There have been some worthwhile studies on supplements, except in very few exceptions, that show they mostly don't work for most medical conditions unless there is a deficiency. But to create a separate institution is wasteful.
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/tens-of-millions-for-cam-research-and-its-all-on-your-dime/

    However, this might be better discussed in a separate thread.since we are talking about burden of proof.

    This principle of burden of proof also applies to debate.

    Believe me, Big Supplements is a hugh business with many lobbyist and corporate influence. Yet they don't have to prove what they are promoting.

    Edit.

    Now Im confused,. Is what I wrote the same as what you are saying?
     
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  14. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    This is why i like the church of the flying spaghetti monster, and its Wikipedia article is very well written.
     
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  15. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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  16. herpesbaby

    herpesbaby Senior Member

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  17. lauluce

    lauluce as long as you manage to stay alive, there's hope

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    I strongly agree with you. Biological psychiatry it's even less developed than medicine itself, but a lot o research clearly show morphological and physiological diferences in people with mental illness compared to healthy people. In some cases, the mental illness can arise due to psychological stressors without being a previous physical anomaly, but these stressors eventually change how the brain works, and so chemical intervention SOMETIMES work. I am aware, however, that for many reasons, psychiatric medication has a very low rate of success, but as you say, it's all we have right now, along with psychotherapies.
     
  18. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    I like the idea of a flying teapot
     
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  19. lauluce

    lauluce as long as you manage to stay alive, there's hope

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    argentina
    there
    [​IMG]
     
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