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Bains Dérivatifs--Cold Water Therapy

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Asklipia, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. Megaera

    Megaera

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    Asklipia: Have been keeping up with the BDs for about 12 days now (with a day or 2 left out because it is difficult to do them when I am at work running a 24-hour shift). You're right, the cool -- even cold -- water, for some reason, is not particularly shocking, but rather very pleasant. I have been using a steel basin for the cold water, and the sound of the water dripping back into it seems to be magnified a bit by the surrounding porcelain which I find it very soothing on top of the physical sensations. I'm working up from 10 minutes/day bit by bit and plan to keep it as part of my routine. I think when I had bilateral hip replacement surgeries the lymph nodes around the hip joints in the pelvis may have suffered somewhat, though the surgeries were certainly a resounding success; at any rate, I am hopeful that the BDs will prove as therapeutic as they have been pleasing. Thanks for bringing them to my attention, and I will post from time to time on my status. I'm also, FWIW, in the early stages of adding B2/manganese to what I'm doing generally -- so far, in small amounts, but with what appears to me to be promising results. So I'm in your debt on at least two scores, and deeply appreciative.
    Regards, Megaera
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  2. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Megaera
    I am so happy that it is working for you. The hip surgeries : this comes about because of problems in the lymphatic flow, then osteoporosis and joint problems concentrate there, instead of behind the neck for example. It all depends on the individual and of the gestures you make or do not make in your every day life.
    Bains Dérivatifs should not be done for 6 months after any surgery, because they may drain the lymph too fast, and the lymph brings what is needed for tissues to close up after surgery.
    After that they should be extremely beneficial.
    There is such a thing as lymphangiogenesis, the lymphatic system changes quite a lot in the course of one's life, parts disappear and others grow as needed, so I suppose you may regrow what you need in that area if your attention is fixed on it and that you soothe it regularly.
    Lots of good wishes!!!!
    Be well!
    Asklipia
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  3. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Megaera
    How are you doing?
    Best Asklipia
  4. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    I thought I would share a small success story for those of you searching for hope which is so important.
    An improvement from 60-75% has meant:
    1. Concentration for up to 6 hours (before lucky if I had 2-3)
    2. Waking up earlier 7 am, with some refreshment (after getting up and moving around)
    3. More energy and strength in legs
    4. Reduced leg pain (still have some)
    5.Not feeling "virusey"all day,
    6. HOPE
    7. Feeling like I can do some work

    Routine Changes
    About 6 weeks ago I started B12injections.I am a vegetarian/pescetarian most of the time but usually careful to keep a good B12 supplement. So maybe this helped?

    In January 2013 I stopped work (even though I had been sick since Jan 2012) to concentrate on resting and healing. As part of the research I switched to a gluten free, miniscule dairy veggieand fish based diet. Zero processed food,filtered water,no alcohol and at least 8 cups of fruit and veggie. At least half raw. So maybe I have regenerated my wholebody at the cellular level ?

    Finally , 2 weeks ago I followed a freind's suggestion who is an "iceberger" after researching cfs and cold water therapy. Apparently cold water:
    1. Activates the hypothalamus and hpa axis implicated strongly in cfs.
    2. The lower body temperature is postulated to reduce fatigue/inflammation(think ice for inflammation)
    3. Cold Water has been found to both stimulate the immune and circulatory system (I can vouch for this I'm now getting better circulation to my hands and feet).
    4. CWT is supposed to assist with lactic acid removal (think footballers) and help with mitichondrial recovery.

    So I now have:
    1. I feel a stronger immune system,less sinusitus, dizziness POTS, less weakness
    2. Able to stay awake longer and naps are less time and less "out of it"
    3. Concentration improvement of about 40%,less brain fog
    4. Ability to start some work
    5. Eyelid droop has recovered about 75%, eyelid inflammation has reduced about 60%.


    So if you haven't tried it and live somewhere near a body of cold water (I couldnt bring myself to doing cold water/or baths) the sea or a lake- it may well be worth a try! It certainly gives you 15 mins a day of feeling fantastic after you first emerge from the water! Goodluck
    Artstu, aimossy, rosie26 and 3 others like this.
  5. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Sinus improvement (I thought maybe through via raised alpha-MSH) and improvement in ANS were some of my biggest benefits using cold water (icebaths). Seems to contribute to much more restorative sleep too.
    I've been icebathing 17 months now. I got ice delivered so I could keep going through summer. Good, solid improvement here. Great to hear of someone else noticing a benefit! :) :)
    Sasha and Asklipia like this.
  6. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I'm giving it a try! Am either lake swimming or ice bathing. How often do you do it, anne and lillybelle?
    Lillybelle and anne_likes_red like this.
  7. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I knew someone many years ago who would take cold swims every morning.

    It possibly could help me through the winter months in that it could help desensitize me against the cold. I deteriorate in winter as I shiver and shake a lot, also the cold seems to irritate my sinuses and am prone to more sinus infections. Be worth trying. :)
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  8. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Well (at the risk of sounding like I've taken up an extreme sport) I'm spending time in icy water almost every day. I do actually find it relaxing as well as invigorating...it's quite addictive!
    In summer it took a lot of ice to get my bath really cold, so every second day it was. :)

    I went from 30% wellness to 60 or 70% (following a circadian protocol as well) over Winter last year. My body temperature was low to start with and it was challenging at first so I took a good long time to acclimatize gradually.

    If you're starting with a reasonable level of functioning you can probably be more adventurous than I was and get out in the ocean or a lake like Lillybelle and Asklipia. That's probably much more fun too!
    You don't need to do it as often as me to see some benefits. Or have the water as cold as I do.

    I really hated the cold and I used to feel anxious coming into Winter, but something clicked physically for me, and me & cold get on really well now. :hug:
    My hands and feet are always nice and warm...never ever thought that would happen!

    Good luck to anyone who decides to try it. Hope you'll see some benefits too.

    Anne.
    cigana, Lillybelle, helen1 and 2 others like this.
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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  10. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    Hi Anne,
    Thanks so much for your feedback, I'm inspired by your results and encourages me to keep going. As you have really improved 100% from where you were which is incredible! I'm surprised there is not more discussion/ research on this topic.
    Actually I'm not surprised it sounds completely counter intuitive to put very sick people in cold or ice water. And its not pleasant when you hate the cold have cold hands and feet and shiver.

    rosie I was similar to you and hated the cold in 33 degree celsius I never wanted to go in the water. But for me it has been a state of mind. Although anne_likes_red is MUCH braver than me with ice water. The water temp where I am Melb /Aus winter is about 9 degrees celsius so not freezing. But Rosie this is what I did:

    1. Walk first to get some heat in the body, then put feet in water for as long as I could
    2. Same as above but then do up to knees
    3. Same as above then thighs and bottom with a jumper/coat above
    4. Same as above no coat roll yor jumper up as much as you can tolerate and breath as slowly and deeply as you can
    5. Walk into ocean/lake no jumper move arms and legs and aim to get body submerged to chest
    6. Same as above but go to shoulders under
    7. Complete submersion
  11. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    Hi Lillybelle thanks x , also Anne and Asklipia


    I can see how this could help with inflammation. I get inflammation very badly, just typing on the keyboard for an hour brings on aching and soreness in my fingers, they also feel stiff and sore, which then triggers inflammation throughout the rest of my body.

    I know when I get the inflammation headaches, using a cold flannel on the forehead for 3-4 hours always does the best job of relieving my very sore headaches.

    Just have to figure out how I am going to do it now, bath or sea. May try both.

    Other than helping reduce inflammation, I wonder if it has an effect on shocking the immune system and then calming it in some way ?
    Lillybelle likes this.
  12. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    Hi rosie summary of cfs cold water benefits:

    1. Activates the hypothalamus and hpa axis implicated strongly in cfs.
    2. The lower body temperature is postulated to reduce fatigue/inflammation(think ice for inflammation)
    3. Cold Water has been found to both stimulate the immune and circulatory system (I can vouch for this I'm now getting better circulation to my hands and feet).
    4. CWT is supposed to assist with lactic acid removal (think footballers) and help with mitichondrial recovery.

    Lots of research papers quoted at bottom of this paper:

    Possible use of repeated cold stress for reducing fatigue in chronic fatigue syndrome: a hypothesis

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2164952/
  13. Artstu

    Artstu Senior Member

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    I benefit from exposure to the cold in the winter. I need to really think about having cold baths in the summer, it isn't something I fancy doing and my water bill will go up a bit, I might try it shortly, thanks.
    Lillybelle likes this.
  14. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Senior Member

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    How long is needed in the cold each day to get this benefit? Is it enough to finish a shower with really cold water?
  15. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Hi Lillybelle, I did other Winter-friendly things (photoperiod and carbohydrate restriction) over the same time, and those things would have to take some of the credit for the progress I made too.
    Cold exposure seems to give some of the benefits of exercise without the inflammation (in fact the opposite).

    I really like your seven step program above! 9 C is cold, especially moving through the water. Do you shiver afterwards?

    Artstu you can always leave the water in the bath - ie use it like a pool, and just add more ice to make it cold again. You probably don't want to do that more than a couple of times though before letting the water go. In the summer I had ice deliveries 2 x per week. They deliver for free or I may not have looked into this option (I told them I needed it for health reasons and they waived the fee - you can always try this in case you come across extra nice ice people like I did) and I had a chest freezer making ice too. Depends how cold you want it.

    Another option is that some health clubs have plunge pools. For some that might be a cost effective option compared to the increase in a water bill.
    We have no charge for water here (not sure how much longer that will last!) but we had severe water restrictions due to a drought over summer...and I used my bathwater to keep my garden going.

    Sparrowhawk I started with increasingly cold showers at the end of a warm one. That's something I used to do years ago too, after I read it might help with lymph flow. I think you'd likely get some benefits. I always used to feel very clear headed and energized afterwards. :) The study Lillybelle linked to talks about using showers I think and mentions some of the ANS benefits of repeated cold stress. My advice would be to try, but take it carefully because if you're unaccustomed to responding to cold exposure your internal warm-up mechanism won't be efficient just yet.

    Anne.
    Asklipia, Sparrowhawk and Artstu like this.
  16. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I love cold water therapy and go into the sea if close to it or an open air pond / pool if some close by and low in chemicals. Even the cold plunge pool of a health spa benefits me if cold and deep enough. It's just hard to find one both accessible and cheap.


    http://www.timeout.com/london/shopping/the-porchester-spa


    Sadly, although I have done this for decades off and on it hasn't made a huge difference to my main ME viral symptoms. I'll get sicker if I try to swim or exercise in the water beyond my limits with PEM. Once I stayed with my Mother by the sea and went in each day from spring until autumn.

    Cold baths don't have the same effect. A paddling pool of cold water is pleasant to me but not enough. Would need to be a waist deep one.

    One wealthy PWME put in a cold water inground pool to enjoy the benefits he had to his health.

    The benefits to me with the cold water are in pain relief, POTs and things like leg swelling due to the POTs I think. No overall benefits and the water needs to be very cold.
    anne_likes_red and Asklipia like this.
  17. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    Hi Helen
    I do it as often as I can manage.Maybe 3-4times per week. I aim to stay in there for about 15-20 min. But I had to work up to getting fully under. And its dangerous to jump straight in if you are not acclimatised to it. See my seven step approach above.
    I cant say I found it pleasant,in fact I felt crazy as I hated cold water. Slow adaptation is the key like exercise.
    Now I must say like rosie I find it invigorating and one of the best parts of my day- once I get out:)
    anne_likes_red and Asklipia like this.
  18. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    Hi Anne,
    Gosh compared to European and Canadian winters I thought 9 degrees celsius would be positively warm :)
    Its all relative to your own body temp. I usually walk to the beach so body temp is up enough to strip off and get in fast!!
    Then I keep moving, walking in water once in the water so I don't know whether that's cheating or not. But still get benefits.
    Asklipia and anne_likes_red like this.
  19. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    I'm in contact with a number of cold water swimmers or bathers in different countries. Some of them go winter swimming at temps of 4 or 5 C (same as I do with the help of lots of ice), but many more seems to be doing well in the 7 - 14 C range.
    I think it's good to get warmed up first. That's not cheating at all! Too bad if it is, I've got a pretty good warm-up routine going shifting all the ice from the freezer to the bath. ;)
    ....As well as that, from about 5 weeks in I noticed my body temperature warming up slightly in anticipation of the bath, and up a further half degree (C) after I hit the water. It's an interesting experience to sit in ice water and feel warm! Of course I'm a lightweight really, not brave at all....I don't have things like wind-chill factor or jellyfish to contend with. And even though I'm getting cosy with iceblocks the size of shoeboxes I adapted slowly, so it's easier 17 months in at 4 C than it was at the start at 14 C.
    I have noticed less viral symptoms myself, but it's had to say whether that's come from immune strengthening from the cold exposure, or from the more refreshing sleep that's resulted (in part) from the regular cold exposure..
    :D
    Sparrowhawk and Asklipia like this.
  20. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Senior Member

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    This is just fascinating. I know Kogelnik was looking at hyperthermia approachs but I had not considered the possibilities of applying cold. Thanks for all the great information here. I'm a big chicken about cold water but may try the end-of-shower cold to see how that goes.
    Asklipia and anne_likes_red like this.

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