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Baicalin - sleep, antiviral, neuropathic pain but dependence?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by minkeygirl, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I discovered Baicalin last week which is from Skullcap. It works on Gaba a. I am taking the powder sublingually.

    It really is interesting, helps with anxiety, neuropathic pain, antiviral and for me the best sleep last night I've had in months.

    I emailed where I got it, www.liftmode.com asking about tolerance, dependence etc. I've read that if something works on gaba A then you don't have to worry, but Baclofen works on gaba a and you can't just cold turkey it.

    They sent me this

    https://examine.com/supplements/scutellaria-baicalensis/

    This is way over my head. My simple dumbed down question, do I have to be careful with this like any thing that works on gaba? I can tell today, because I feel so F'ing good (also LDN helping) that i want to take it again. I never take anything for sleep more than 2 days in a row so I'm guessing this will be on that list.

    Thanks smart people
     
  2. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    It is also, I believe, an NFkB inhibitor. I have thought about taking it for this reason, but haven´t so far because I do not know what effect inhibiting NFkB might have on an active infection (Yersinia in my case).
     
  3. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    Don't know what NFkb is. Can't read most of that. I just want to know about tolerance and dependence. Sleep was awesome!

    It does a lot of good stuff. I was very happy with the service at lift mood.
     
  4. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I wrote it wrong, it´s NF-kB. I don´t know what it really is either, I just know that Yersinia activates it. I think it is involved in inflammation.
     
  5. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    Well the more I read the more I find it does. I'm not going to use it for a few nights. I just can't see how there can't be some problem since it works on gaba
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  6. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    My understanding is that Gaba-A causes dependence, not Gaba-B as in Baclofen and Xyrem.

    It's great that Baicalin helps your sleep so much, @minkeygirl, but I'd be wary about taking it more than a couple of times a week. Maybe every 3rd night?
     
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  7. wintersky

    wintersky

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    I dont know about Baicalin, but Skullcap, the entire item has also been long used in actual TCM clinical practice in certain cases of insomnia when other items with less effective properties have failed. It also has a great variety of other issues, including in autoimmunity situations, allergies etc. In TCM, it's a herb with very extreme properties & effectiveness, falling short only when compared with the rare toxic items.

    That said, there are also some noted contraindications for certain kinds of people. Also, due to it's extreme properties, it's never taken in actual clinical practice for more than 2 weeks in a row, sometimes 1 week, at about 5g daily dosage when combined with 3g licorice root or so (licorice root is said to slightly neutralize any toxic properties or balance the extreme properties of any herbs).

    You're using just baicalin, so i dont know how it's like or if what i said above is relevant still to baicalin. I'm not sure if you believe in TCM or the the TCM-noted properties of the whole item, but im just saying it for your personal reference in case you might want it.

    Wish you all a Good Day ahead,
    Wintersky
     
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  8. PDXhausted

    PDXhausted Senior Member

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    @minkeygirl What time of day do you take it to get the sleep benefit?
     
  9. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @perchance dreamer For some reason in my head I thought baclofen was gaba A too. Thanks for correcting me. Yea I'll definitely alternate with it, just like I do my other sleep meds.

    @wintersky way too much info. drugs, herbs, TCM, rat poo. If they put me to sleep I'll take it.

    @PDXhausted I dumped some under my tongue at 10 (when I take my other sleep stuff). I remember looking at the clock at midnight, then I woke at 3, dumped more (about 200 mgs?) under my tongue and slept until about 7. It's a little sour but not gross.

    I've been waking every day at 4 a.m. so getting more than 4-5 hours sleep is amazing!
     
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  10. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @perchance dreamer Now I'm not sure. This is from the link I posted. I still will alternate but I still would like info specific to this. This is baicalin.

    Baicalein appears to be a GABAA receptor agonist, with the glycoside (Baicalin) having no such effect.
     
    Countrygirl likes this.
  11. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    Baicalein appears to be a GABAA receptor agonist, with the glycoside (Baicalin) having no such effect
    Baicalein and Wogonin are both potent GABAA agonists, and can activate this receptor. This is thought to mediate some of the depressant and anxiolytic effects of scutellaria baicalensis
    Oroxylin A is a relatively effective GABAA antagonist at the benzodiazepine binding site and has been confirmed to be active following oral ingestion, its properties oppose that of baicalein and wogonin
    examine.com

    this seems interesting, http://www.progressivehealth.com/using-gaba-to-help-resolve-sleep-problems.htm
    i understand, the body may start making more gaba in chronic insomnia.
    consequently it may also shut down gaba production when supplemented for some time.
    seems, the whole matter is 'not fully understood' and therefore info appears confusing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  12. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @roller. I posted that link and read it. I can't understand it which is why In my OP I asked for a dumbed down answer from someone who knows the answer.
     
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  13. Nelly Lenz

    Nelly Lenz

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    Two constitutes of Skullcap are Gaba - A agonists, one constitute is Gaba-A allosteric modifier about half as strong as a benzo. Is addictive and dangerous in the long term? Baicalin, don't confuse with the other constitue Bacaelin, isn't as strong according to examine.com I wouldn't be overly worried about it. Skullcap (including Bacaelin) is also a potent inhibitor of microglia inflammation response making a neuroantiinflammatory. Given the recent study from japan which shows neuroinflammation via microglia, I'm not surprised you found its helping along with LDN. They probably are synergistic in this regard. There's also a Cort Johnson article about a women who recovered herbally in no small part to using skullcap daily.

    A very similar herb that has the same neuroprotective effects is Magnolia Officinalis. It also works at the gaba-a receptor.

    I have done google searches into addictive/tolerance of both these herbs. Other than herbal websites claiming they have no side effects (but they always say this), there a quite a few nootropic forums with users taking this. I haven't seen any complaints of tolerance/addiction.
     
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  14. Nelly Lenz

    Nelly Lenz

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    I have been looking into taking these both as well. I'm personally gonna try them daily, I'm not super worried about it.

    Do you feel "so fucking good" as in less CFS symptoms or as in "high"?
     
  15. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    Let me know how it goes with the baicalin. I'm onky taking it for sleep so didn't notice feeling high.

    Last night I took 750 mgs phenibut in divided doses and am not high today at all. When I first started taking it (intermittent so no lectures please) I would be wasted the next day. But in a good way. I was kind of hoping for that today since yesterday sucked
     
  16. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I got this information from a reliable source who spoke to their herbalist about Baicalin. They are ok with me posting this. I do think there could be tolerance issues but? I took 500 mgs last night, was out in 1/2 hour and slept 6 hours straight

    "I asked the doc about Chinese Skullcap and he said that it shouldn't be given alone--only in mixtures as it has side-effects and you need other herbs to balance them.

    He said that it is in the herbal mix they gave me--along with 19 other herbs. But, he said it would not be addictive like benzos."
     
  17. Nelly Lenz

    Nelly Lenz

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    Yeah the Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioners (skullcap is from china originally), like their herbs to be given in groupings, idk if I buy into that, althought there may be some truth that groups are synergistic. Glad to hear its not addictive.
     
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  18. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    I've been using 200 mg Chinese Skullcap extract bedtime for the past few months and it's definitely one of the best supplements I've found for CFS symptoms, in particular for sleep, anxiety and brainfog. The effect for me is nothing like from benzodiazepines, it's way more subtle. I guess the effect on GABAA is low at the dosage I take as I haven't noticed any dependence effects either.
     
  19. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    @JES - do you get good quality sleep? Do you wake up feeling reasonably refreshed?
     
  20. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @JES i was wondering about tolerance. I'm not going to take it very night just to be safe

    @Little Bluestem two nights ago I took about 500 mgs sublingual at 10 pm. At 10:30 I couldn't keep my eyes open. Slept straight through til 4am. Then slept til 5:30 when I woke to take LDN.

    Since I never feel refreshed when I wake, I can't say about that. And the LDN is helping with that too. But I didn't feel drugged at all
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.

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