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Bad reaction to Methyl supplements and folic acid/B12...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joe24, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi, I'm new here and I was hoping someone might be able to help me with a problem I'm having. I've been suffering from a lot of health problems for some time now, in particular mental health problems such as anxiety, ocd and on and off depression. Somebody told me that these could be caused by a problem with under or over methylation linked to histamine levels. I heard there was a test I could do with niacin where a flush from more than 100mg would tell me that I would have low histamine levels and a flush from less than 100mg would mean high histamine so I did this test about a month ago and flushed from75mg which indicated that I had high histamine which then meant that I was probably undermethylating. So a few weeks ago I began taking methyl B12 and methyl folate to see if I'd benefit in any way. I started on 400mcg of methyl folate and 2000mcg of B12 and at first I was ok on this but after a few days I increased the folate to 800mcg and I became severely depressed so I stopped both the folate and B12 and the depression eased off. I then decided to see if I might have more luck with TMG or SAMe but TMG made me feel good for about an hour but then I crashed into a depressed state and SAMe (200mg) had the same effect. I tried lowering the dose of SAMe to 50mg but even on this amount I also became severely depressed (even bordering on suicidal) so I stopped the SAMe too. The problem is that it's been a week now and the depression hasn't worn off so I fear I may have done some real harm to myself with these methylation supplements. The thing is, after taking the methyl folate and reacting badly to it I figured maybe I'm overmethylating instead so I tried some regular folic acid and B12 and felt terrible on these too (depressed also) so I just can't figure this out. I've also tried Mathionine in the past with the same result (bad depression) I'm guessing that if I didn't have a problem with methylation either way then I wouldn't react badly to these supplements to begin with. Could this kind of reaction to methyl supplements be due to a deficiency in something? Maybe Methyl B12 or perhaps potassium? I'm just really confused. The problem is I can't afford to go to a doctor and get tested as I don't work due to my health problems so I'm really at a loss as to what to do. Sorry if this was a bit of a rambling story but I've never felt as unwell as I do now and I was really hoping to be able to get some help to figure this out as I'm really quite desperate. Thanks very much. Joe
  2. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    Hi, Joe. There's a NeuroBiologix methyl supplement you might consider. What I like about it is that it's easy to split with a cheap pill splitter. I'm currently taking 1/4 of this sublingual. I do take other kinds of methyl donors and just wanted to boost the methylfolate and methyl B12 a little. Maybe you'll be more successful with adding methyl donors if you start small and increase slowly.

    http://www.neurobiologix.com/product-p/785.htm

    TMG is too stimulating for me, but I do well with 250 MG of DMG 3 X daily. Good luck!
  3. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Have you thought about looking into Rich Van' K's Simplified Methylation protocol. There is a sticky about it at the top of the threads. It is a much "milder" version of getting methylation going and some people have done well with it. Others do well with Fredds' protocol but it does seem to be harder for some people to tolerate at first.

    Pam
    Valentijn likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joe,

    COMBUNATIONS are the key. Start on AdoCbl AND MeCbl (crumbs of a pill are ok, hold under lip). Start the methylfolate with them. It has a short halflife so a quarter pill each 6 hours could work better and help level it out. Bounding around like that will make things worse and worse. You responded to the MeCbl. That is an important CLUE. With some careful titrating and understanding what is a signal of healing turning on versus a side effect. These signals are often induce deficiencies of many different kinds. That is why one takes a b-complex, and basic minerals and vitamins etc or it is like shooting an elephant with a BB gun; it's a struggle all the time then and healing never really works when it is stopped and started all over the place. Be care of the conclusions you jump to. Each one puts you farter away from being able to heal. When one starts those first 34 on about the third day one often needs more potassium and folate, if the symptoms as are listed.



    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.



    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.



    INDUCED HYPOKALEMIA AND FOLATE INSUFFICIENCY DECISION TREE



    IF taking Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey, all glutathione or glutathione precursors

    AND often sudden onset of several group 3 symptoms (“Detox”) maybe in a sequence, ie pain and inflammation the first day, cheilitis occurs on day 2-3 and IBS on day 5-6, plus any group 2 symptoms. Symptoms increase for weeks or months and can vary from mild to extreme.

    THEN Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency onset. B12 deficiencies follow in a week for methylb12 deficiency symptoms and several weeks for adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms. None of the other supplements can overcome the effects of glutathione or NAC.

    ELSE - all other conditions

    IF injecting b12

    AND itchy bumps and acne type lesions appear mostly on scalp and face but not exclusive

    THEN B12 was hydroxycbl OR photolytically deteriorated methylcbl OR cyanocbl, Lesions can be reversed in days with methylcbl injections not exposed to light at all.



    IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden widespread healing onset. This usually occurs as soon as methylation therapy starts widespread healing process by allowing DNA replications with methylb12 and methylfolate.



    IF adding adenosylcobalamin AND OR L-carnitine fumarate AND OR SAM-e to program (perhaps 50%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and /or muscle growth. This usually occurs when the person has experienced muscle shrinkage perhaps from decades of inactivity, as soon as these supplements step up mitochondria functioning.



    IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)

    AND on the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that anybody can use. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folinic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is a less oxidized form of folate than folic acid.. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF an increase in dietary vegetable folate, “green drinks”, a garden feast

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid AND OR starting or increasing folinic acid AND OR an increase in dietary vegetable folate

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency AND this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing



    IF starting or Methylfolate – Metafolin starting low and titrating

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND OR usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency, a “donut hole” deficiency. The effects of folate deficiency/insufficiency comes in layers. Several tissue groups can be healing at the same time as other tissue groups are deteriorating. IBS and angular cheilitis can be worsening at the same time as muscles are healing or growing. There is a dose of Metafolin that can start more tissue formation than the same dose can sustain causing a Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency at the same time. In some people at least as they increase Metafolin the need for potassium increases approximately proportionately. The donut hole can be closed with total daily doses of Metafolin of about 15mg for many people.

  5. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi everyone,

    Thanks for your replies and all your kind suggestions.

    Freddd, thanks so much for all that information. I guess when I started this I didn't know what I was getting myself into, it's so complex. The problems I'm having sound a lot like folate deficiency and also potassium deficiency too. I've started taking potassium but I think the folate thing sounds like the main problem. I've ordered some more Methyl B12 5mg, some Dibencozide and some Metafolin but I'm really worried about making this problem worse as I'm in a very bad way and I don't think I could take it getting even worse. I'm a bit confused on the paradoxical reaction issue to do with taking Methylfolate. If my problem is folate deficiency caused by taking methylfolate then why wouldn't the problem become even worse if I were to start taking the Methylfolate again? How would the deficiency be corrected by taking the very thing that caused it in the first place? Is there a certain dosage that would be enough to correct the deficiency without overdoing the healing/methylation at the same time? I'd really appreciate it if you could let me know what the best starting dose would be of the Metafolin (maybe 200mcg?) and how often to increase the dose (and by how much) once I'm on it, thanks. Also, is there any way to tell how long it might take to correct the folate deficiency?

    I wanted to ask about the Methyl B12 too, is there an ideal dosage for that? Would it have to be in proportion the the amount of Metafolin I'd be taking or would it be ok to take as much as I can handle? Usually I'm fine on 5mg a day.

    Sorry to have so many questions but just to throw another one out there, I have adrenal issues which seem to have become aggravated since this methylation problem began, do you know if this is common and if adrenal fatigue would somehow get in the way of methylation being able to start properly or be worsened by increasing methylation?

    Again, sorry to have so many questions and thanks again, it feels like things are becoming a bit clearer now. I really appreciate all your help.

    Joe
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joe,

    A few problems.

    I've ordered some more Methyl B12 5mg

    There are no 5 star 5mg methylb12s currently that I am aware of, only the 1mg Enzymatic Therapy.


    I'm a bit confused on the paradoxical reaction issue to do with taking Methylfolate. If my problem is folate deficiency caused by taking methylfolate

    Lets look at it this way. First, our bodies are in effect divided into 5 or 6 independent layers when it comes to folate. Healing can get turned on in one layer and be insufficient in one or more other layers. Methylfolate can start more healing than the same dose can keep going so some folate has to be taken from a different layer causing deficiency symptoms there. Also, how much a person is affected by folic acid and folinic acid and vegie folates can influence how bad the methylfolate blockage is. Often adrenal fatigue can be caused by the same deficiencies as other fatigues in the body, adenosylcobalamin, which is the other active b12 that generates energy in the mitochondria and l-carnitine fumarate. Adele Davis was big on liver for adrenal fatigue. Today we have the Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl and Anabol Dibencoplex for AdoCbl, and lcf and methylfolate, the 4 major things from liver.

    A higher dose of b1, b2 or b3 than about 20-25mg each twice a day can overdrive parts of the cycle causing apparently insatiable need for potassium and folate. The other B vitamins need to be brought down if that is the problem. Folic acid and/or folinic acid need to be eliminated from vitamins as they can contribute a lot of paradoxical folate deficiency for some people.
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Your genes can affect which forms of B12 you can tolerate. If you have COMT/VDR mutations, then methylcobalamin can cause mood swings.

    If you get a 23andme.com DNA test, then run it through geneticgenie.org and post the results here, we can tell you which forms of B12 are going to work better for you among other things. It's only $99.

    Also, your starting doses are way too high. It's best to Start Low and Go Slow. That means start with a very small dose, add one supplement at time etc. Have some nicotinic acid on hand in case of adverse reactions.

    Watch my Methylation Made Easy video series; the link is in my signature.
  8. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi Freddd,


    That's interesting about the liver. So maybe adding in these supplements and addressing this methylation issue will help the adrenals. I'll look into ordering some LCF too at some point.

    I ordered the Jarrow Formulas Methyl B12 5mg as that's the one I've always had in the past and I've always felt good on it. I was reading a post on here called "B12 The Hidden Story" where Cort was saying:


    "Absolutely critical minimums for basic healing.

    • Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness
    • Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness
    • Solgar Metafolin 800mcg
    • Jarrow B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day
    • Potassium, your choice of brand and form - this is insurance against hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and potentially fatal - if you have blood tests, potassium is usually checked, midrange, around 4.5 is good. Some people will have problems at bottom of "normal" range, 3.5-4.0 as I do.
    • Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day, I buy it at Costco, house brand. This is available in many supermarkets."



    If the Jarrow Methyl B12 isn't ideal maybe it'll be ok for now until I can get the Enzymatic Therapy one you suggest if that's better.



    Something I really want to know is how I take enough Methylfolate to correct the folate deficiency to make me feel better but not overdo the healing at the same time and make the deficiency worse? How is someone supposed to know how much is going to help and not exacerbate the problem? It just seems like a bit of a minefield.

    You say folinic acid needs to be eliminated from vitamins as it can contribute a lot of paradoxical folate deficiency for some people. This was something I was wondering, whether it would be a good idea to take some folinic acid at the same time just to treat the folate deficiency (it's just the type you get in food isn't it?) If folinic acid would be a problem I'm guessing I should probably avoid green vegetables too, is that right?

    Thanks Freddd,

    Joe
  9. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi Caledonia,

    Thanks for your suggestions, I'll look into getting that test done as soon as possible, I'm sure it'll be useful.

    You're right, it does sound like I was taking way too much. It's such a complex issue, I obviously didn't understand what I was getting myself into. I'll certainly take it a lot slower from now on.

    And thanks for suggesting your methylation video series, I'll be sure to watch it.


    Joe
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joe,

    The Jarrow went bad 18 months ago causing many of us with neurological problems to have a bad time of it for some months. I had a crash and setback because of it. Only the Enzymatic Therapy has the 5 star effectiveness currently. Also, FOLIC ACID IS OUT. No more country life dibencozide. The most effective one now is the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex.
  11. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Source Naturals ADB12 not as good as Anabol?
  12. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi Caledonia,

    I was just hoping to ask a quick question about the MethylB12. Do you know whether there's some kind of proportion that has to be kept between the MethylB12 and Metafolin? I've started on 100mcg of Metafolin today and I was wondering how much MethylB12 to take with it. Would 5mg a day be too much for any reason? I usually feel good on this amount but I read someone on here talking about too much MethylB12 in proportion to Methylfolate possibly causing a donut hole deficiency. Do you know if this is right and what sort of dosage of MethylB12 would be best for me to start on? (for 100mcg or so)

    Thanks a lot,

    Joe
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Great question! There is also a thing called methyl trapping, where there too much folate relative to B12. As you need both folate and B12 to create methyl groups (like mixing baking soda and vinegar), I think the donut hole thing is the same phenomenon, but tipped the other way - too much B12 relative to folate.

    In fact, with a quick google search, I just found an article which says the same thing - http://www.livestrong.com/article/364531-what-is-the-relationship-between-folate-vitamin-b12/
    Although, the NIH allowances they give in the article are just wacky - 1000mcg folate to 2.4mcg B12. If that said 2.4MG that would be a lot better.

    My suggestion would be to find final ratios which are supposed to be good ratios, then recreate those on a smaller proportional scale.

    Rich Vank recommended 2000mcg hydroxycobalamin, 200mcg methylfolate and 200mcg folinic acid.

    Ben Lynch's supplements have 1000mcg methylcobalamin with 800mcg methylfolate.

    So for Rich Vank, 100mcg folate (combining both folates into one value), that would be 500mcg B12.
    For Ben Lynch for 100mcg methylfolate, that would be 125mcg B12.

    So let's say 125 to 500mcg B12.

    Self muscle testing can also be helpful for determining not only what substance is good or bad for you, but also what amounts to take. I use this extensively. There are lots of videos on Youtube that show you how to do it.
  14. Azrael

    Azrael

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    Hi Freddd when you're saying "FOLIC ACID IS OUT" what exactly do you mean ? Is it not good ? Been looking at the "Absolutely critical minimums for basic healing" I only see solgar metafolin as a folic acid variation. Im going to do my latest vitamine order on monday trying to resolve all the unclear issues before that.

    Im also going to get the Enzymatic Therapy and the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex according to Cort's treatment plan.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Azrael,

    Folic acid is out to begin with if one ones to maximize the chances of starting healing. It is a "misunderstanding", a serious one, to consider L-methylfolate "metafolin as a folic acid variation". Metafolin is the always active in animals form of folate, the only one that all our bodies can use. Folic acid is to Metafolin as linoleum is to flax seed oil. Folic acid is the worst possible folate that might work partially for anybody. It is the most highly oxidized folate that can sometimes be converted to L-methylfolate. In other people it can actually block up to 10x as much Metafolin from reaching where it is needed. Metafolin is the only brand of l-methylfolate that I have tested and it works very well. For me. folic acid (50% can use partially to biological limits of conversion), 30% can use to an even smaller amount and 20% can't use at all) can block up to 10x as much l-methylfolate from working, folinic acid, (non-working percentage unknown) can prevent 10-20 times as much l-methylfolate form working and veggie folates (unknown percentage of people non-working) can prevent some quantity of l-methylfolate from working.

    As Country life Dibencozide has folic acid it may cause blockage of l-methylfolate in some people. The Anabol Dibencoplex has distinctly more activity as noted by many people than either other brand, for unknown reasons.
  16. Azrael

    Azrael

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    Ah then it all makes sense, thanks for your broad reply.

    Maybe I should have written folate variation or folate family.
  17. joe24

    joe24

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    Hi Caledonia,

    Thanks for working that all out. I'll probably keep it at 500mcg. I was obviously overdoing it a bit taking 5mg of Methyl B12 so that helps a lot, thanks.

    Also, I was wondering whether you know if there's a particular kind of diet I should be on. Should I be eating as much green veg as possible to help with methylation? I'm a bit confused because I've also been told that I should be avoiding folates including folinic acid (apparently that's mainly the type you find in food). I'm eating lots of green veg at the moment thinking I'm helping myself so I'm a bit worried that I may actually be adding to the problem. If you could shed a bit of light on this I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks a lot Caledonia, I really appreciate your help.

    By the way I watched your methylation video, it was great, thanks for recommending it.

    Joe
  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I think it's ok to eat green veggies as long as you tolerate them. Freddd was the one who was having trouble with them, but that may or may not apply to you. If I'm remembering correctly, he was getting a paradoxical folate deficiency from them, due to not being able to convert the folinic to methylfolate.

    A couple of caveats on veggies I've run across - some people don't detox oxalates well, so in that case you would want to avoid spinach.

    Tomatoes, peas and mushrooms are high in glutamates so that could cause a stress/anxiety/or wired reaction if you're not converting glutamate to GABA well (pretty common for ME/CFS patients).

    Due to digestive issues, some people do better with cooked veggies instead of raw veggies.

    I have problems with non-organic nuts, berries and shrimp, which commonly have nitrites added. It gives me an anxiety reaction. I can pick out what's safe with muscle testing.

    In general, a whole foods diet is best. This means no processed foods or artificial anything. I don't think strict Paleo is absolutely necessary, but something approaching that is probably best. If you avoid grains, you'll naturally end up eating more fruits and veggies. My diet could probably be called Paleo other than I eat potatoes. Then again some people don't do well with nightshades and would need to avoid potatoes.

    So basically, my philosophy is to eat real food, cook from scratch, and then avoid whatever seems to bother me - but not get too hung up about it.
    Sparrowhawk likes this.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Joe,

    My suggestions about avoiding these folates is the only way you will know. It could avoid years of struggle for unknown reasons. A lot of people have no problems with them and a lot do. It can also be dose related, 400mcg of folic acid might be no problem but 1000mcg might be. It took me a lot of trials to arrive at my own parameters for folates and it all changed when I increased b2 and b3 and when I decreased them and decreased b1. So all these things among others affect folate insufficiency symptoms on various levels. So there is no set answer except individual trial. The answers are not defined by the current polymorphism interpretations. MeCbl above 100 mcg absorbed doesn't appear to make any difference to methylation. It is a very minor methyl donor and in being recycled over and over it receives far more methyl groups than it brings with it which is 1 (atomic mass about 16, out of 1335 or so total atomic mass for MeCbl).

    I would suggest a well balanced diet without corn syrup, without lot's of sugar, without too much of the wrong fats and see after you get healing going you can determine what effect veggie folates have on you if any. Also, you need to determine your own reactions to various types of dairy products and gluten containing items. Many other food sensitivities can disappear after one's intestines heal.

    Like folic acid and folinic acid, veggie folates generally need to be reduced (un-oxidized) or otherwise changed to be able to methylate and to my knowledge they consume ATP and enzyme to be transformed.

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