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Bad reaction to chelators

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I tried a Google search on PubMed, to try to find studies that showed mercury impairs the transport of minerals, but found little. Here are two studies I did find:

Inhibition of calcium transport by mercury salts in rat cerebellum and cerebral cortex in vitro
Effects of gallium and mercury ions on transport systems

However, even if mercury can affect transport of minerals, you would also need to demonstrate that mercury will affect and disturb the mineral levels found in hair tests. I can find no references in Cutler's book about this.

Would you know where Cutler got this idea that abnormal, disrupted mineral results in your hair analysis (as defined by his "counting rules") are an indication of high levels of mercury in the body?

That's the problem with Culter. The claims are self-fulfilling and there is no independent research to support them.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
That's the problem with Culter. The claims are self-fulfilling and there is no independent research to support them.

Agreed. But if I were to follow a mercury detoxification protocol, I'd follow Culter's. What he says about the half lives of chelators makes intuitive sense at least.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@trickthefox
Mercury toxicity can mimic a chronic stealth infection and it can also open the door to them. One of the systems impacted by mercury is the immune system and some of us have had autoimmune problems, or things like candida.

Even after chelation with the Cutler Protocol, I still had to treat a mycoplasma infection.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@trickthefox @alicec

I'm sorry. I used to have access to one of the sites with 540 different studies on mercury listed. From the look of it, it may have been some of the original data that Cutler used to help design the protocol. Being a scientist he was able to re-plot data and check the validity of claims being made.

I am not a "yes man" by any means and Andy and I have had a number of disagreements on things, notably on the significance of notable SNPs in the methylation system and the potential importance in terms of a person's ability to excrete mercury. I do agree that his protocol works although it took me longer than many.
 
Messages
50
Location
Canada
@trickthefox @alicec

I'm sorry. I used to have access to one of the sites with 540 different studies on mercury listed. From the look of it, it may have been some of the original data that Cutler used to help design the protocol. Being a scientist he was able to re-plot data and check the validity of claims being made.

I am not a "yes man" by any means and Andy and I have had a number of disagreements on things, notably on the significance of notable SNPs in the methylation system and the potential importance in terms of a person's ability to excrete mercury. I do agree that his protocol works although it took me longer than many.

Stridor,

How long did it take you? Without getting into great detail, which chelators, dose, combination, schedule did you settle into. How often did you increase dose?

I've been on the cutler protocol for 8 months. I seem very sensitive. 1.5 mg ALA, 6.25 mg DMSA, 2.5 mg DMPS, took me a while to establish this. Lots of bad rough rounds and bailed on a few. I tried combining chelators on a 3 on 3 off schedule but now I take them individually, 3 on 5 off, taking ALA and DMSA only once every 4 rounds, DMPS twice. Low thiol diet. I take the 4 basic supps.

Is it true sensitivity to chelator could relate to the volume of metals, or does it have more to do with SNPs, I have APOE4. I know Andy doesn't agree with gene theories.

Thanks
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Kiwi Jack
I took my first chelator in Jan 2011 and did my last round in March 2015. In that time I did the equivalent of 300 Cutler rounds. A Cutler round is 3 days and 2 nights. I was doing 4 days and 3 nights. Plus, I was doing some ultra-rounds where I stayed on round a lot longer.

I don't recommend that. What I did was stupid and it took its toll. I had this crazy notion that if I could just get rid of the mercury then the immune system would realize that I had a colon full of polyps and come and save the day. It didn't work out that way.

I pushed too hard. I won't bore you with the details but I lost thyroid and adrenal function but just kept chelating, Even when I had triggered CFS and needed help to stand, I just kept chelating. This is part of the whole Bipolar thing that was part of my symptom-set. People with Bipolar accept that only part of their lives will be livable and tolerate illness.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems. As a word of encouragement your reaction is a continual confirmation that you are on the right track. BTW....not sure if you know this already but I am Brian's brother. He is a moderator on the Cutler facebook and forum sites.

My early struggles had a lot to do with the quality of Vitamin C that I was taking. If you haven't done so yet, switch to liposomal Vitamin C. Make your own and it will be one of the cheapest and bestest things you can do. There is a recipe on this site that I left and I left one on the FDC site as well. Use pharmaceutical grade Vit C which is the L isomer only.

Double check that all the mercury is gone. I had a 2nd dentist do more x-rays when I wasn't getting better.

Some people do a Melisa Test which checks for metal allergies. Those people have it rough and chelate at your levels for 8 years and longer.

You are knocking at the door for the dump phase right now. There are some who find that they can move forward better after that. This thread has some of the other things that have helped me.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mitochondria-mercury-methylation-mycoplasma.40763/
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
I understand they are trying to find other tools. How can horsetail help the detox? (This stuff is well known to veterinair medcin for decades) It is a big lumpy molecule and has so many sulfur binding endings.

Urinari Infections UTI – get well treated with horsetail. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...elieve-cfs-or-m-e-symptoms.33796/#post-523464 Hopes are that it will support like chlorella and it travels safely in the gut. Some see negativ changes with B 6 Vitamin, others think B 1 (Thiamin) is influenced, Potassium disorders were mentioned in PR Forum with horsetail / Silica. (Otherwise I did not find much talk about this.) Though it is in good use since 2004. The Klinghardt people are using it.
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
horstail advertisment:

German Forum: Micro Silica (= horsetail) wurde ca. 2009 entwickelt und stellt eine Revolution der Entgiftung dar. Es entgiftet ohne Redistributionsgefahr. Es wird bei Kleinkindern genauso angewandt, wie bei Schwangerschaften, um schnell viel Gift auszuleiten. Gifte werden so fest gebunden, das keine Nebenwirkungen bekannt sind.

Man nimmt 1 bis 3 mal täglich eine Dosis von 120 mg, gelöst in einem Glas Wasser. 1 bis 7 Tage nach Behandlungsbeginn kommt es zu der spontan verlaufenden Ausschüttung der Giftdepots des Körpers. Jahrelang wurden Gifte in Zellen eingelagert – diese werden nun plötzlich und in großen Mengen freigesetzt. Dann erhöht man die Dosis auf 1 bis 3 Dosen drei- oder vierfacher Größe. Binnen weniger Tage ist man über den Berg und die Symptome gehen zurück. Dann nimmt man das Mittel noch 1 bis 2 Monate normal dosiert weiter ein.

Das Mittel ist sehr neu und nicht als Medikament anerkannt. Die Bindung ist so fest, und die Effizienz so hoch, das es einen großen Fortschritt in der Schwermetall-Entgiftung darstellt.

http://www.symptome.ch/vbboard/amal...silica-schwefel-allergie-and-molybdaen-4.html Bodo answers #35, page 4
 

student

Senior Member
Messages
166
The above text- was posted at Symptome CH forum:
„Mikrosilica (is horsetail product) - Developed around 2009. this is a revolution in detox. It detoxes without re-distribution- dangers. It is given** to small infants, as well as used for pregnancy in order to detox - rapidly much toxique load. Poisons are bound fix, so that no secondary effect is known. You take 1- 3 times daily a dose of 120 mg in a glas of Water. 1- 7 days after start of treatment it comes to spontanios running outporing of toxique depots of the body. For Years toxis loaded the
Zells – these will now suddenly in great quantities come free. … (I can not translate- sorry).

This Product is verry new and not listed as Medication. The binding is so tight, and the Efficiency so high, so that this is a great progress in heavy-mettal-detox.“ [This is advertising language- though I have seen trustworthy talks like this – of Klinghardt ]
** this product - has been in use more than 7 (2016) years in high numbers. And was given to a considerable Number of infants with autism and other toxique conditions.

Can we make use - of new options?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Yes. This is one of the basics of the protocol and why it's called "frequent dose chelation".

I have personal experience with this. I'm a fast oxidizer and need to dose the ALA every 2 hours day and night or I get redistribution and feel worse. Lucky me.

You will, of course, get some dumping from the last dose at the end of the round but it will be minimal compared to getting dumping from multiple doses.

When doing the cutler protocol, instead of waking up every 3 or 4 hours at night to take the next dose of alpha lipoic acid and DMSA, which cutler says must be taken every 3 and 4 hours respectively (based on their half life), I wonder if applying ALA and DMSA transdermally on your skin from head to toe just before bed might create a slow release mechanism, that keeps you topped up with these chelators all night long while you are asleep. My idea is that with this approach, you may not have to wake up during the night to administer doses.

I guess you could only know whether this transdermal approach would work by trying it out, and measuring your blood levels of these two chelators hour by hour, to see how long they stay topped up in your blood when replenished by the transdermal skin reservoir.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
When doing the cutler protocol, instead of waking up every 3 or 4 hours at night to take the next dose of alpha lipoic acid and DMSA, which cutler says must be taken every 3 and 4 hours respectively (based on their half life), I wonder if applying ALA and DMSA transdermally on your skin from head to toe just before bed might create a slow release mechanism, that keeps you topped up with these chelators all night long while you are asleep. My idea is that with this approach, you may not have to wake up during the night to administer doses.

I guess you could only know whether this transdermal approach would work by trying it out, and measuring your blood levels of these two chelators hour by hour, to see how long they stay topped up in your blood when replenished by the transdermal skin reservoir.

I looked into this - I don't think it will work as a slow release mechanism. You would need the same technology used by the nicotine patch, for example, not just applying adding ALA to a lotion and applying it to your skin.

If you do go the transdermal route, you need to stick with it, because the absorption of the same milligram amount might be different between oral and transdermal.

I've heard of mothers of autistic children using transdermal - they can just rub the cream on their child without waking them up.

If your mother was there to apply every it 3 hours, then it would work! :)
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
When doing the cutler protocol, instead of waking up every 3 or 4 hours at night to take the next dose of alpha lipoic acid and DMSA, which cutler says must be taken every 3 and 4 hours respectively (based on their half life), I wonder if applying ALA and DMSA transdermally on your skin from head to toe just before bed might create a slow release mechanism, that keeps you topped up with these chelators all night long while you are asleep. My idea is that with this approach, you may not have to wake up during the night to administer doses.

I guess you could only know whether this transdermal approach would work by trying it out, and measuring your blood levels of these two chelators hour by hour, to see how long they stay topped up in your blood when replenished by the transdermal skin reservoir.

The Frequent Dose Chelation Yahoo group answers questions like this all the time. You could go there.

Tho I fancy that if TD were possible, they would have been onto it long ago. Everyone finds night dosing a pain.

(And some things e.g. folate may not work TD.)

I dose two-hourly with ALA & DMSA, & don't find it much more troublesome that 3-hourly - plus you get a lot more Hg moved.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Hip
One of the reasons that mothers of autistic kids can get away with this is because they are...kids. Adults are the ones who have the hardest time with chelation. Even a change of a milligram or two in the early days is enough to rock the boat. It would be hard to imagine how to avoid the waking up at night thing.

The ends justifies the means though. I did it for years and removing mercury was part of my recovery. Pivotal I would say as I don't think methylation or the immune system can work properly with Hg on board. No one enjoys waking up at night but we just did it.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
No one enjoys waking up at night but we just did it.

A mercury detoxification is one of those things that's been at the back of my mind to do for a few years, just in case it might help. Though I have not yet been tested for heavy metals. I probably don't have hight levels of mercury, if my ability to take alpha lipoic acid without side effect is anything to go by: I can take 600 mg of ALA, and get no side effects at all. People interested in mercury chelation say that if you have bad effects from taking ALA, it is down to mercury mobilization by ALA (although I'd like to see some evidence of this).
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Hip
That is right. When I took that dose in 2008 I got very sick and I am not 100% sure that I have managed to regain all the ground that I lost. Fatigue, irritability, fog and depression. The effects were cumulative and began within the first few days.

On the other hand, ALA does not move Pb. Therefore ALA use can not be used to make a guess on the next most likely metal to mess with methylation. A test still would not be unreasonable and a hair test is preferred - safer and better.

It just makes a lot of sense to try to remove poisons from the methylation pathway if we seek to optimize it. So good for you for adding it to your to do list.

Since ALA moves Hg. I wouldn't take it unless your exposures are minimal. That is to say, that you do not have amalgam fillings nor dine on sushi every lunch.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
A test still would not be unreasonable and a hair test is preferred - safer and better.

I did some time ago look at the Doctor's Data website for hair analysis, which I understand is a good service, but they require you print out a form, fill it out, and then mail it (rather than email it) to them in order to open an account. It's not too difficult I guess, but you know what it is like with brain fog: you tend to procrastinate when complexities appear.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
I did some time ago look at the Doctor's Data website for hair analysis, which I understand is a good service, but they require you print out a form, fill it out, and then mail it (rather than email it) to them in order to open an account. It's not too difficult I guess, but you know what it is like with brain fog: you tend to procrastinate when complexities appear.

It's cheapest to get it (ironically) from Yasko. I don't remember a mail in form.

I have a link to the correct test in my signature link. Under the Cutler chelation section, towards the bottom of the page.

Then send the results to the Frequent Dose Chelation forum for interpretation.