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Bad reaction to chelators

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by trickthefox, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. trickthefox

    trickthefox Senior Member

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    Hey guys, just eternally piecing puzzle pieces together to try and work all this mess out

    So i've noticed in the past whenever I take a sulfur supplement like MSM, DMSA, ALA etc. I get a very sharp increace in brainfog, what i like to call the zombie effect, for about 4 hours. No supplement gives me quite the same reaction.

    What im unsure of is if this is to do with my dysbiosis and hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria, turning the sulfur into a neurotoxin, or if its because its to do with mercury or another metal being mobalised.

    The problem is in the first event - the supplements would be making me worse, in the second event they would be making me worse in order to make me better.

    I had a EDTA infusion at one point and got horrendus kindey pain on my lower right side, which means something was being processed.

    Is there a way of differentiating the two reactions??

    The third possibility is that my gut is just having an autoimune reaction to the supplement

    Im on rifaximin at the moment for my gut overgrowth, seem to have a bit of a yellow coating on my tongue, due to start diflican for this.

    Does anyone else get simmilar reactions?

    It happens to even very small doses of ALA or DMSA
     
  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @trickthefox - your symptoms sound like what I experienced with a mercury detox, which definitely affects the brain. I reacted quite strongly to MSM and DMSA, not so much to ALA for some unknown reason.

    So I can't say for sure what's going on with you, whether it's related to gut dysbiosis or not, but those are mercury chelators, so I think it's quite possible that mercury is the issue.

    re the diflucan for yeast - FWIW, I had very good results with virgin coconut oil. It's high in caprylic acid, capric acid and lauric acid, which are all antifungal, and it's very safe (safer than diflucan). It was so effective, I had to go quite slowly with the dose, starting with one tablespoon a day and gradually work up to 2. I think originally I may have taken 2 tablespoons and was hit with a very strong herx reaction so had to back off.

    One other thing re your gut dysbiosis - often this is due to low stomach acid; if stomach acid is low, it can allow the overgrowth of unfavorable bacteria - if you google "SIBO low stomach acid", you'll find a lot of info. So you might want to look into this. A simple test to check stomach acid is on an empty stomach, drink a glass of water (about 8 oz.) into which you have mixed one-quarter teaspoon of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). See how long it takes you to burp. If you haven't burped in two minutes, your stomach acid production is low.

    One more thing - I found that the amino acids glycine, glutamine and inositol all helped me with detoxing - they support the detox pathways. I do go recommend going slowly with them because they can cause a detox reaction, especially the glycine. But I found by happenstance after taking them for awhile, I stopped reacting to so many things with detox symptoms, and when I had mercury test done by Quicksilver, it showed my mercury levels were almost non-existent and that I was in good shop in terms of detoxing capabilities, whereas before, I detoxed at the drop of a hat.

    I'm sure all this is way more than you wanted to know, but it's just all stuff I've dealt with so hopefully some of it may be helpful -
     
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    It sounds like you may have mercury toxicity.

    If you don't take the chelators on a frequent dose schedule, you can have mercury (or other metals) redistribution and feel worse.

    The sulfur sensitivity and gut dysbiosis are also symptoms of mercury toxicity.

    See my signature link for more info on Andrew Cutler frequent dose chelation, how to test for mercury, how to chelate etc.

    You can avoid sulfur and also supplement with molybdenum to help the SUOX enzyme detoxify the sulfur.

    @Mary The Quicksilver test is not the best. You could still have mercury. See my signature link for Andrew Cutler frequent dose chelation and the hair toxic metals and essential minerals test.

    The mercury can hide on a metals test, while the minerals show deranged mineral transport, which is a sign of mercury causing damage.
     
  4. trickthefox

    trickthefox Senior Member

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    Hi guys thanks for the info!

    I have taken the chelators as per the half life in the past, the problem is, even on a dose as low as say 6mg of DMSA, the brain fog is pretty crippling , wandering why its so bad, is this common at the start of chelation?
     
  5. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @caldonia - you might be right that the Quicksilver test is not the best, I'm not sure. However, based on my symptoms, I don't think I have a problem with mercury like I used to. As I said above, I used to detox at the drop of a hat, anything that had any sort of "cleansing" properties or glycine especially, would cause a huge detox reaction for me. When I increased my methylfolate a few years ago, I was in lala land for a week. And I've increased it now with no problem. I believe my detox pathways are finally working how they are supposed to, and I credit the 3 amino acids I mentioned above, all of which caused me a detox reaction initially but no longer do.
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Could be 6mg is not low enough, or you're a fast oxidizer and need to take it more often than the standard half life, or you're not taking the core four supplements with it (vitamin C etc.)
     
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Do you still have ME (CFS) and/or other symptoms of mercury? For example, fatigue, tremor, thyroid, adrenals, sleep, memory/concentration, anxiety/depression, gut issues?
     
  8. trickthefox

    trickthefox Senior Member

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    another question, is I'm hugely sensitive to sulfur foods, is this something that clears itself up with chelation?
    It seems paradoxical that people with mercury develop huge sulfur issues, but must consume sulfur supplements to get better! But i knew this chronic illness business was never easy!
     
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Hi @caledonia - yes, I still have ME/CFS (most notably PEM). So you believe ME/CFS and PEM is caused by mercury poisoning? I don't think I agree with you there. I think there are people with ME/CFS who haven't been poisoned by mercury. Hopefully all the new research will give us more answers.
     
  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I believe many people's ME/CFS and PEM is caused by mercury toxicity. I'm working on some documentation as to why I think that is.

    But I also wouldn't rule out there being other things which can put a person into a dauer state. For example, the list of things which can negatively impact the mitochondria is incredible. I believe you would also need to have the right genetics to go into a dauer state in combination with stressors.

    But given the ubiquitous nature of mercury in our environment, its incredible toxicity (second most toxic substance in the world), its persistence in the body and brain, the difficulty in detecting it, the correlation with ME/CFS symptoms and lab findings, and the historical correlation of the rise in mercury exposure with the rise of ME/CFS, it's at the top of my list.

    I was like you - thought I had gotten out my mercury. Turns out I was wrong.
     
    Justin30 and Mary like this.
  11. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @caledonia - you make some good points. Are you still working on getting the mercury out? If so, what protocol are you using?
     
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, I'm using Cutler's frequent dose chelation protocol. I'm really just getting started. Completed round #2 over the weekend.

    I've had bad experiences with other protocols.
     
    Mary likes this.
  13. M494MC

    M494MC

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    @trickthefox
    Have you ever tried dmps?
    Also like Caledonia said you could try smaller doses.
     
  14. Unim

    Unim

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    From what I hear, people do tend to tolerate sulfur better after chelation. I never seemed to have a particular problem with it, so not sure if I've noticed any difference.

    Sulfur causes heavy metal symptoms by bouncing them around, so if there is less around it shouldn't be so problematic. The sulfur chelators bind more strongly so it drops less frequently.

    .

    My brain fog sometimes seems worse on round, but it is pretty much severe 24/7 and nothing seems to help. On the final day of a round right now and just had a massive wave of irritability though...

    .

    And, as above, 6mg can be too much for some people. Regular and adequate C+E+Mg+Zn is key to Cutler's protocol and going without them is asking for an ass whoopin.

    .

    I've read about people using chelators transdermally. If you could find a sulfur compound that would absorb through the skin, maybe it could differentiate between that and any intestinal effect? I'd avoid MSM as it's what made some people sick who now post on the Cutler groups, though it was probably taken orally.
     
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Mercury inhibits the SUOX enzyme which detoxifies sulfur.

    It inhibits SUOX by depleting molybdenum, which is a co-factor in making SUOX work right.

    Cutler suggests avoiding thiol foods and supps (see the Free Thiol List) and then taking molybdenum. Thiol is a component of sulfur.

    I did the Heartfixer CBS protocol several years ago, which is similar. I did notice an increase in gaseous odor from onions after this last round, which may be a sign of some moly being depleted.

    Any rate, to answer your question - yes, the sulfur sensitivity should clear up as you chelate because there won't be any mercury left to deplete the moly. But in the meantime you can get relief by doing what I described above.
     
  16. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    The more I learn about this, the more I feel that some people set themselves back a bit by not doing chelation properly or ramping up gradually. In my case, I initiated it based off suspicion of toxicty, w/o testing, but right off the bat I jumped into the lose dose approach w/rounds , so I think that may have saved me some grief....
     
  17. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Thats interesting, since I have kind of the opposite reaction, where the chelators will "brighten" my mind , at least until towards the end of a half life. Ive noticed lately that I could actually time the rounds without a clock since I can subjectively "feel" an effect wearing off. Never used to happen that way before. OTH, that could also be due to the effects of ALA on blood sugar. Not really sure.
     
  18. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    Did you mention @trickthefox that you smoked? I cant remember if it was you or someone else.

    If so are you still?
     
  19. trickthefox

    trickthefox Senior Member

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    Thanks for the tips guys, i stuck at it, and by maybe about 50 hours or so in i stopped reacting negitivley to the DMSA, and actually felt a bit of an energy boost off it, setting the alarm to take the dosage at night wasnt as bad as i suspected.

    Because of my reaction to the chelator I am now strongly suspecting a metals problem
     
    cman89 likes this.
  20. trickthefox

    trickthefox Senior Member

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    Now just have to figure out a schedule, would you guys say 3 days every week is too often? maybe 3 days every 10 days?
     

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