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Bacterial overgrowth in stomach?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by hixxy, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Hello,

    I've been diagnosed as having H2S producing SIBO. Just wondering if it's possible for a person with extremely poor stomach acid production to have the SIBO spread into the stomach.

    I would have thought there would be a delay between ingesting food and symptoms developing if you just have SIBO.

    I feel horrendously sick within a minute or 2 of swallowing food. Increasing my betaine dose seems to make no difference at all. The only thing that helps a bit is cooking my food as a stew to the point where it's almost pre-digested.

    Thanks,
    Troy
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Troy,

    I'd guess yes. I also was producing H2S and had a huge overgrowth of prevotella. I also have low stomach acid. There are some other related threads. I posted this earlier today: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...thout-a-doctor&p=192663&viewfull=1#post192663

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  3. sleepy237

    sleepy237 Senior Member

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    Sushi if you have low stomach acid production can it also cause the same symptoms of GERD? I am curious as I have been on Lansoprazole for a few years now which would further reduce acid and my gut motitlity is very bad but as soon as i miss a ppi pill i have acid in my throat. Missed my gastric emptying study so trying to increase motility naturally if it is possible. Thanks. Best wishes ~Sleepy
  4. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Hixxy, I am no expert on the subject, but it wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps not H2S producing bacteria, but overgrowth of other bacteria, which cause disease.
  5. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I cant answer definitively but the SIBO is limited to the intestines. The symptom of feeling ill within a minute or two of swallowing food is a symptom of low stomach acid. the low stomach acid can be a cause of SIBO.

    The HCL should help. What is your dose? I am no expert but have just posted a response on this and from what I know is that it is recommended to start slowly, no more than 500mg/day increasing to about 500mg/meal (up to 3000mg /day - Mark Hyman).

    It also helps not to consume water with meals; limit snacks or no snacks between meals; chew food very well to assist digestion.

    Unpasturised saurerkraut (1/4 to 1/2 cup per meal) is supposed to assist with both acidity and promotion of probiotics. Lemon juice in water is allegedly benefical too.

    Unfortunately I cannot comment from experience and am just embarking on this journey.

    Read this http://bb-cfs.blogspot.com/search/label/dysbiosis and this http://bb-cfs.blogspot.com/search/label/H2S

    I'll follow with interest.
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Yes, low stomach acid can cause the same symptoms as GERD!

    Vicious, isn't it?

    Sushi
  7. DANEL

    DANEL

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    so i guess the big question is how does one get rid of the bacteria in the gut? axb only or other natural supplements? like what? i tried GSE and gave me headaches, so i have been trying neem, for upper gut fermentation/bacteria and a strep and staph pellet homeopath and an herb, black radish and parsley, both by Hanna herb shoppe in boulder, co. you can goggle the site.

    i know i have a lot of bacteria from mold and trying hard to rid myself of it

    denise
  8. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    It depends on how long and by what techniques a person has been trying to restore gut bacteria. My inclination would be to focus on restoring symbiosis. Our gut are supposed to have both good and bad bacteria. the quantity of bad bacteria are kept under control by the good bacteria...until something causes an imbalance (abx, yeast/candida, food allergy or otehr pathogen such as virus, bacteria, parasite). So if you are in the early stages of attacking the problem, I would focus on improving the colony of good bacteria (probiotics, kefir, homemade saurerkraut etc).

    That is all 101. The best form of attack is to know what is the likely cause and a stool analysis can help here. If you have candida/yeast, then this needs to be addressed via diet and probiotics (in the generic sense, not just supplemental probiotics as the other forms such as kefir and saurerkraut can introduce other beneficial strains that may not be present in a probiotic).

    The basis of fecal transplant success is the importation of healthy and beneficial good bacteria. This treatment has a good track record in treating c-diff which appears resilient to many conventional forms of treatment. This may be extreme, but the basis is the importation of good gut flora. This can be assisted via other means.

    Depending on what may be the underlying cause, I would resist antibiotics (unless abx are the key treatment for the particular underlying cause ofcourse) as they are detrimental to the good gut flora, as are ant-inflamatories, diet (can cause candida/yeast) and antacids.

    Unfortunately for most people, the cause is not just one factor but usually several (I have posted on this here recently) so it takes a while and a lot of patience to remedy.

    Diet is key. Sugars are generally to be avoided to ensure the bad bacteria's food supply is cut off. If you can, avoid meat that is factory farmed (basically all of it unless the supply is organic, grassfed) as the animals are fed antibiotics as part of the routine course of raising them (a long story here of why but Ill save that for a rainy day and if there is any interest). It is antibiotics that are thought to be the (indirect) cause of the recent European e-coli outbreak. I was just reading this today http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-07-small-amounts-antibiotics-big-problems.html

    I have not been able to answer your question directly as I have no experience of mold bacteria but the key is to increase the symbiotic bacteria. I have heard that peppermint oil and garlic are often used as well but you would need to look into this further as I have no knowledge of this.

    ps I did find this in a quick google search. The link came from a MS site where they believe MS may also be caused by dysbiosis. They had a link to mold bacteria treatments http://moldrecovery.blogspot.com/2010/01/treatment-options.html it is a starting point possibly and could require more digging from you.

    Maybe start up a post with the key words "mold bacteria" to see if others can share their experience with you.
  9. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    I don't know whether a recent experience of mine might aid Hixxy but certainly my bowel problems have improved (diahorrea, blackened feaces etc). Following some dental treatment (root extractions and infection suspected) I was put on high dose Amoxcillan for a week. Can't think this is pure coincidence but stools and urine have returned to the correct colour and odour free and solids too at last. Masses of probiotics taken after. I noticed a slight re-emergence of Herpes Simplex only but this has since disappeared too. Just a thought for you (I had previously tested high on KdeM's H2S measure). The whole action of the digestive tact (peristalsis) works too.
  10. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Hi Troy. This sounds similar to something I've experienced. In a nutshell I think the act of eating triggers or exacerbates an immune response and serious oxidative stress. I started a thread about it in which I reference three recovery stories that all involved a period of fasting and intravenous nutrition. I believe this approach could be a valuable tool in treating our disease.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?8228-A-Role-for-TPN-in-CFS
  11. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    I've thought about IV nutrition in aiding recovery from this illness in the past, but getting IV nutrition in Australia is near to impossible. How are you managing this problem at the moment? I know for a fact I had complete resolution of this problem 2 years ago on a triple abx therapy for blastocystis hominis. Thing is, the abx could have killed something other then blasto (SIBO?) as well. It relapsed viciously about 2 weeks later.

    During that period of remission, it was the best I'd felt in years, almost complete recovery. Since then I've gone on to develop MCS and EMF sensitivity and a lot of other neurological problems. Sigh.
  12. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    I'm starting to believe there is some sort of stomach pathogen (protozoa?) not showing up on testing as I no longer show up positive for blastocystis hominis, only "parasite present, taxonomy unknown" with metametrix.
  13. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    that sucks that more stuff came back, hixxy. Were you taking anything for leaky gut at all?
  14. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Hixxy,

    Metametrix does an aerobic test, I believe. It is likely to miss anaerobic infections. I had a huge anaerobic infection. I think the the only lab that does an anaerobic test is Redlabs in Belgium--which makes it difficult internationally.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  15. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    This feature is no longer as pronounced as it once was for me. There's only a slight worsening in symptoms now following a meal. My immune system seems to be doing its nastiness, regardless of eating, all on its own. But for the record the only relief I ever had from this was with wormwood which seems to alter things in a favourable way. However, this approach would only work if accompanied by a sugar/carb free diet, perhaps suggesting a sugar-fed pathogen to be involved. This would be compatible with the bacteria (or other gremlin) you were nailing with antibiotics. The fact that your troubles returned suggests a resilient bacterial-like infection. I recently tested positive for Lyme and coinfections, which fits this bill. Hopefully food for thought.
  16. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Sushi, I've had the same test done here in Australia. That test was actually developed by Dr Henry Butt in Australia at Bioscreen. I've just had this test repeated and my H2S producing bacteria levels are down, I've now got a clostridium overgrowth :(
  17. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Graeme, unfortunately for me, a completely carb free diet for me results in rapid weight loss. I'm unable to absorb fats efficiently due to lack of bile flow (ox bile only works a little for this) so can't load up on fats. Doesn't matter how many digestive/pancreatic enzymes and betaine hcl I take, I still don't seem absorb protein efficiently. So my only hope is to kill whatever it is!!

    Lyme testing is very expensive isn't it? Where are you located? I don't think Lyme is very common in Australia.
    Francelle likes this.
  18. satori

    satori

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    Sushi,

    The Metametrix test claims to identify anaerobes by useing DNA testing. Redlabs claims to use 16s PCR amplifcation followed by high throughput screening. I'm not sure what the difference is if any. I'd like to know as I wondered if the Metametrix test was just as good because it's certainly easier to get done. I'm wary of all these labs because for the longest time they only did aerobic tests which are not worth much, they seem to frequently default to the "taxonomy unknown" identification a lot and they charge a lot for the tests. Any insight appreciated.

    http://www.redlabs.be/red-labs/our-tests/intestinal-dysfunction-assays.php
    http://www.metametrix.com/test-menu/profiles/gastrointestinal-function/dna-stool-analysis-gi-effects
  19. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    I had a similar problem with rapid weight loss, though mine seems to have been due to low stomach acid (of course hypochloridia leads to SIBO too). I originally solved this by taking 1 oz of vinegar with meals (I can't take betaine HCI). Unfortunately I sensitized to vinegar shortly afterwards and had to stop. However, serendipitously I stumbled upon a rather counter-intuitive solution when I started on the pleomorphism diet. Counter-intuitive because the primary purpose of the diet is to alkalize. It improved my digestion in a matter of days and I started putting on the pounds. Even better though, I felt more clearheaded and lighthearted than with just about anything else. It was as if my system was throwing up a guard against the onslaught of mammalian meats I was giving it and decreasing gastric juices. The difference is profound and has to be integral to my recovery process. You'll see, though, it's rather restrictive when you combine it with the sugar/carb free diet, but if it works, you gotta stay with it. All this as I digest filet mignon - but nobody's perfect, eh?

    Werthmann Hypoallergetic-
    renic-restoration Diet

    Avoid!
    Mammalian meats (beef, pork,
    lamb, etc.)
    Cow's milk and all dairy
    products: yogurt, cottage cheese,
    ice cream, chocolate, cheese and
    cheese dishes
    Nuts and nut dishes
    Chicken egg white, egg dishes,
    cakes, etc.
    Pork, Nam and 5ausages
    Citrus Fruit (except lemon and
    lime)
    All Histamine rich meats: Rabbit,
    Venison, Anchovies, sardines
    No Canned foods or Foods
    containing preservatives
    No refined sugars or products
    containing them - carbonated
    soft drinks
    Yeast and yeast containing foods

    Permitted:
    All vegetables, potatoes,
    etc.(Salads
    Chestnutso Rice (brown)
    Beans (Mung, adzuki etc.-soak 6
    hrs., cook in fresh water)
    Soy dishes (seaweed: powdered
    kelp, kombu, dulse, nori)
    Egg yolk
    Grain dishes - preferably
    unrefined and low gluten (millet,
    qulnOa, buckwheat)
    Fruit (except citrus and melons) -
    should be eaten before 12 pm-
    noon.
    Pineapple is permitted all day.
    Chicken (white meat) and Fish
    (only __ times per week)


    As for Lyme down there, you'll find groups if you google it. I came across the following:

    Myths surrounding Lyme Disease in Australia

    (there is also a downloadable version of this list here)

    - There is no Lyme Disease in Australia this is FALSE. The misconception that Lyme Disease does not exist in Australia is based on a study in 1994 by Russell and Doggett. There were numerous problems with this study and its methodology, which are the focus of an upcoming article in the Medical Journal of Australia. By contrast Willis was able to identify the bacteria that causes Lyme Disease in Australian ticks in 1995. In addition to this Carly and Pope found an Australian strain of Borrelia, Borrelia Queenslandica in 1962. A 1959 study by Mackerras isolated Borrelia on Australian fauna kangaroos, wallabies and bandicoots, this was also omitted. Adding to this is the fact that a large number of diagnosed Lyme Disease patients in Australia have never travelled out of Australia. More study desperately needs to be done on Lyme Disease in Australia.
  20. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    I am actually beginning to think more and more in the direction that a stomach pathogen is at the core of this disease. Rather than having it's main reservoir in the intestines, I'd say it might be the stomach.

    Many patients I have been in contact with improve with treatments somewhat similar to the Helicobacter pylori treatments (combination of antibiotics). H. pylori is thought to thrive more when the person is stressed. Perhaps a pathogen of the stomach could be trail. Would make sense with regards to how many get worse from certain foods, and how many who have used antibiotics relapse quickly when off (that's how other stomach pathogens have behaved).

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