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B3 Niacin deficiency caused by methyl donors?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 8, 2015.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Fo those of us who were are are taking regular large amounts of MB12 (in addition to other methyl donors... How do we keep from having a severe Niacin deficiency? B3-Niacin, we know, mops up methyl donors. By the same token don't methyl donors mop up B3-Niacin? Not sure what happens after they bind. If they might un-bind at some point making the B3-Niacin available? But it seems like maybe timed-release B3-Niacin would be in order? or taking small doses separately throughout the day away from the methyl donors?

    Note: Elimination half life according to WikiPedia is 20-45 minutes
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
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  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    In general it's recommended to take all the Bs, especially when using megadoses of B12/B9.
    I think a daily dose of 100-200% RDA of B3 should keep you away from a deficiency without interfering with methylation.

    Personally I can take up to 100mg of niacinamide without issues.

    cheers
     
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  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I also meant to ask. I know there is a difference between Niacin and Niacinamide. I thought those looking for Cholesterol benefits of B3 had to take Niacin.

    So from Master Google....

    From LiveStrong
    "Niacin can be used to treat high cholesterol levels thanks to its role in fat metabolism, but niacinamide does not work for this purpose, according to Lieberman and Bruning. When niacin takes on an amide group, its cholesterol-lowering effects are inhibited"

    From VRP
    "Although niacinamide shares some characteristics of niacin, it has unique nutritional and pharmalogical properties of its own. The niacinamide form of B3 is literally required in hundreds of enzymatic reactions in the human body. Research has demonstrated its remarkable benefits for arthritis, asthma, diabetes, heart disease, stress, stroke and recently as an anti-aging nutrient.
    "Niacinamide is a component of two related coenzymes—nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADP). The principle function of these enzymes is to facilitate oxidation and reducing reactions in the form of dehydrogenases.
    "The traditional medical use of both forms of B3 is to treat the vitamin deficiency syndrome known as pellagra, a disease that occurs frequently among people who subsisted
    mainly on corn (maize). After the Spanish introduced corn to Europe, a condition began to be observed which was first called ‘Mal de la Rosa’ (redness of the rose) because of the red skin lesions frequently seen — one of the hallmarks of pellagra. In Italy, the condition was called pellagra, which meant rough skin. The name Pellagra was
    introduced into medical literature in 1771 by Frapoli.
    "Full-blown pellagra is a chronic wasting disease associated with dermatitis, dementia and diarrhea (the three Ds). Early symptoms include weakness, lassitude, anorexia, and indigestion. Mental changes include fatigue, insomnia, and apathy which precede encephalopathy, characterized by confusion, disorientation, hallucination, loss of memory and frank organic psychosis."


    Same article from VRP
    "Niacinamide is usually absorbed only in the small intestine, while nicotinic acid is absorbed in the stomach as well. Both niacinamide and nicotinic acid are present in
    blood plasma and are converted to the coenzyme form in the blood cells, kidney, brain and liver. Although niacinamide can be converted to nicotinic acid, there is no direct conversion back to niacinamide. Niacinamide is water soluble, and the body does not store a significant amount. Most of niacinamide is present in the tissues in the form of
    nicotinamide as NAD and NADP. Niacinamide converts twice as readily to NAD/NADP as does niacin. Tryptophan metabolism provides about two thirds of the
    nicotinamide the body utilizes (Fig. 1)."


    From CHealth
    "Products labelled as "no-flush" niacin generally contain no nicotinic acid. The main component in these products is inositol hexanicotinate (a different form of vitamin B3 mentioned earlier). While inositol hexanicotinate works as other B vitamins work to promote energy metabolism and nervous system health, it has not been shown to have any effect on cholesterol levels. This product does not cause flushing because it does not work the same way as niacin."

    From Life Extension
    "In our bodies, some niacin is converted to nicotinamide, and some nicotinamide is converted to an extremely important and versatile compound called NAD. One study has shown that the amount of NAD produced from a given amount of ingested nicotinamide is twice the amount produced from an equivalent amount of ingested niacin.1 NAD is important in part because it is the “de-enabler” molecule that helps prevent a certain DNA-based aging mechanism"

    Fairly comprehensive article on B3s from Aging Sciences
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I avoid supplementing niacinamide because it directly increases uric acid. When I changed it to niacin I felt much better (back when I was taking a B complex daily until September last year).
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I think that's possible -- that if niacin can mop up methyl donors (maybe excess methyl donors) -- then it may be possible that it also works the other way around. Same with vitamins and the mineral co-factors, IMO.

    And I know we're talking mainly about methylation here, but this video is excellent on how we need B2 and B3 for the krebs-TCA cycle, and shows exactly where the various nutrients fall into place:

    https://www.khanacademy.org/test-pr...osphorylation/v/regulation-of-krebs-tca-cycle

    Also, she notes (at around the six-minute mark) that this whole cycle is regulated -- so that if there's too much of one substrate, then efforts are made in other areas to account for that, if possible. And if enough substrate isn't available, then protein will be used to try and keep the cycle going.
     
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  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I've been struggling with this same question for the last 2 years off and on. Very frustrating/complicated and confusing. But I think that Life Extension has it right.

    From wiki:

    "Nicotinamide, (ni-kə-tē-nə-mīd) also known as niacinamide and nicotinic amide, is the amide of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3 / niacin). Nicotinamide is a water-soluble vitamin and is part of the vitamin B group. Nicotinic acid, also known as niacin, is converted to nicotinamide in vivo, and, though the two are identical in their vitamin functions, nicotinamide does not have the same pharmacological and toxic effects of niacin, which occur incidental to niacin's conversion. Thus nicotinamide does not reduce cholesterol or cause flushing,[1] although nicotinamide may be toxic to the liver at doses exceeding 3 g/day for adults.[2] In cells, niacin is incorporated into nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADP), although the pathways for nicotinic acid amide and nicotinic acid are very similar. NAD+ and NADP+ are coenzymes in a wide variety of enzymatic oxidation-reduction reactions.[3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinamide
     
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