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B2 I love you!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I am relatively new to this thread and it has grown so fast in just a day!

    I found this link useful and the sections 'Nutrient Interactions, B-complex vitamins' and Deficiency interesting. For you, symptoms of riboflavin deficiency include "sore throat, redness and swelling of the lining of the mouth and throat, cracks or sores on the outsides of the lips (cheliosis) and at the corners of the mouth (angular stomatitis), inflammation and redness of the tongue (magenta tongue)......". I think I recall that Freddd reported that AMP relieved his symptoms of cheliosis but maybe it was the B2 and not B12???

    I found this interesting also, "The conversion of riboflavin into FAD and FMN is impaired in hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency.."

    I found this to be a very good general read.

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/riboflavin/

    another general site (http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=93) states that "Many of the early-stage deficiency symptoms for riboflavin involve eye-related problems. These problems include excessive sensitivity to light, tearing, burning and itching in and around the eyes, and loss of clear vision." Im not sure if this is your experience of inflammation or not,

    The same site states:

    How do other nutrients interact with vitamin B2?

    Vitamin B2 status is strongly affected by intake of vitamin B1. Adequate supplies of vitamin B1 can help increase levels of vitamin B2. However, very high levels of vitamin B1 intake can increase the loss of vitamin B2 in the urine. Other nutrients, especially iron, zinc, folate, vitamin B3 and vitamin B12 are not fully available in the body without adequate supplies of riboflavin.


    It goes on to say about B1 "What events can indicate a need for more foods high in vitamin B1?

    Loss of appetite
    "Pins and needles" sensations
    Feeling of numbness, especially in the legs
    Muscle tenderness, particularly in the calf muscles

    The numbness mentioned by Dannybex at post 73 could be a result of B1 deficiency instead of/as well as B6???

    Apologies that this info is fairly basic and not at the level of some discussion but Im climbing the learning curve here.

    Best
  2. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    I have just posted a link to broad general article on B2. Some of your questions may be answered in the section Nutrient Interactions -B-complex vitamins.

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/riboflavin/
  3. therron

    therron

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    Here's some interesting research for those with MTHFR mutations.

    The researchers concluded that an optimization of the riboflavin status in patients with increased risk of hypertension due to genetic MTHFR variants may offer a low-cost strategy for managing their elevated blood pressure. These findings, if confirmed in the general population, could have important implications for the prevention of hypertension.

    Riboflavin is required as a cofactor for the enzyme methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) involved in the transformation of homocysteine to methionine. A common genetic variation (polymorphism) results in reduced enzymatic activity and a 20% increase in plasma homocysteine (3), which has been linked with elevated blood pressure (4) and an increased risk of stroke (5). It has been estimated that this polymo-rphism concerns 10% of the people worldwide, ranging from 4% to 18% in the United States, 20% in Northern China, and to as high as 32% in Mexico (6). However, supplementation with riboflavin appears to stabilize the enzyme MTHFR (7).



    1. Horigan G. et al. Riboflavin lowers blood pressure in cardiovascular disease patients homozygous for the 677C/T polymorphism in MTHFR. J Hypertens. 2010; 28:478846.

    2. Wilson C. P. et al. Riboflavin offers a targeted strategy for managing hypertension in patients with the MTHFR 677TT genotype: a 4-y follow-up. AJCN. Published online January 2012.
  4. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Dog Person posted on the Hair Mineral Testing thread that in an effort to have consistency with her posts, she will only post on that thread from now on. Some of you might want to copy your questions over to that thread.
  5. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Hi all,

    Though we still don't know yet the whole story about an eventual B2 depletion when taking B-complex, and as many of us follow Freddd's or Rich's protocol (which includes vit Bs), perhaps it would be a good idea to chose a brand which is reinforced with B2... untill we get a clearer picture of the situation.

    I used to take AOR multi B, but now will order an other brand. Here are some values for riboflavin/per capsule
    AOR multi B : 2.5 mg
    ThorneB complex # 12 : 28.6 mg
    Douglas Labs B complex : 20 mg

    And like many others, I thank DP for her help, time spent etc and am waiting for more info,

    Best,

    Hanna
  6. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    My latest update, for those who are following the progress of those on the B2 protocol or the DP protocol, or whatever name it is going to get, is that I am sweating today. It is wonderful and a real sign of progress in my ability to detox. I am having days when I dont feel so great and then I will feel better than I have for ages.

    My sleep is still good and I have a feeling that oxygen is getting into my system. Very pleased so far but concerned about the supplements I have stopped as some of them were to support my thyoid like selenium which is no longer found in British soil.

    I went into town today - the first time for ages, and can feel I`m a bit more like myself.

    I am a little disappointed that my blood pressure has not come down 139/69 and my pulse rate is up at 72 whereas it was 60 but that might be a good thing as 60 is the rate for an athlete.

    Brenda
  7. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Good to hear Brenda!

    I started too and had some liver discomfort and nausea since. Stopped all supplement except b2. I always knew the liver was a major problem in this disease so I think it's a good sign. I still feel I lack oxygen in my system, hope I'll have some improvement soon too.
  8. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Hi
    I think it was justy that said if we needed large dosages of b2, amy yasko, would have figured it out. I just asked a friend whose son has been doing yasko for years what dosage of riboflavin he is on. he is taking 200 mg a day. Yes, I double checked. 200mg. He has been on this dosage for a couple of years I thinnk.
  9. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    Sweating

    Brenda,

    I saw your post that you are sweating. This is not necessarily a good thing. You are correct in saying that your body is now working at rebalancing your system but I want you to do it safely. The sweating can mean any of three things. One is that you are removing too many metals to fast from storage locations back into the blood stream. Your body may not be able to produce enough radical quelching systems to keep up with this quantity. Two is that you are placing too much iron and copper in the bloodstream and the liver still can not adequately produce enough carrier proteins so your unbound minerals can also be free radicals. The body may be attempting to place them into sweat for removal since the bloodstream can be overwhelmed. This can place you in a high cancer trend due to the radicals causing damage to cellular DNA.

    Second, it can mean that you are not running the energy system forward to produce ATP. Instead it is going backwards, and releasing the imcomplete energy as heat in stead of ATP. Like what bears do with they hybernate - they do not produce energy because they do not need it, instead they need heat so they use uncoupling proteins to release that energy as heat.

    I suggest you lower your amount of B2. Allow it to balance the other B's that you are eating in foods so they can work in synergy.
  10. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Aquarius, just for clarity i didnt say Amy Yasko would have noticed if we needed B2, but that if it depleted other vitamins she would have flagged this up - perhaps she has noticed this (although i think the jurys still out on the evidence for this so far) and that is why she recommends a higher dose of B2. 200mg is a lot, but 400mg is given for migraine, so i guess its not that much in comparison.
    I've bought 20mg tabs (food state) but havent strated them yet.
    all the best, Justy
  11. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I never knew before that B-2 is actually "stored". I only thought B-12 was. It's even hard to find information on the net stating that B-2 is stored, although I did find this one site that said....

    "Riboflavin, mainly as FAD, is distributed in all tissues, but concentrations are low and little is stored.

    http://www.vitamin-basics.com/index.php?id=46

    Is this something where people in the know are just recently finding out that more is stored than originally thought or is just a little amount stored?

    If only a little is stored can one assume that it wouldn't take very long to get stores up to optimum levels?
  12. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Which form of B2 is preferred? Regular B2 or the active form?
  13. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    Regular B2.

    Research is fairly new regarding amount of B2 stored on the body (last 4 years). They have not quantified the amount yet, but the fact that it takes over 3 months to create a deficiency when animals are fed a purified diet suggests the stores are very high. You can create a deficiency of folic acid or B12, both stored in the liver in small quantities, in about 1-2 weeks, depending on circumstances of course. The other B vitamins that are not stored create a deficiency the very day they are not supplied by either food, supplement form or activated by other vitamins. You also correct those deficiencies the day you take or activate them. But correcting a B2 deficiency can take weeks, see information below.

    The compound riboflavin or vitamin B2 as it is known is vital for the formation of two substances involved in the efficient utilization and biochemical conversion of the calories derived from the proteins, the fats and carbohydrates in food into a form that can be used by cells: riboflavin is found in flavin adenine dinucleotide (FAD) and in flavin mononucleotide (FMN); both compounds are part of the electron transport chain in the mitochondria. The energy levels in the body are reduced by a lack of riboflavin in the body. The formation of skin, nails and hair requires the presence of riboflavin.

    Significant effects on the metabolism of the carbohydrates, fats and protein result from the existence of a riboflavin deficiency in the body. To be properly utilized in the human body, all these three basic food elements will require riboflavin for their bio-chemical conversion into usable metabolic energy. The utilization of carbohydrate decreases when there is insufficient riboflavin in the body, this may result in an increase in the consumption of carbohydrates as the human body tells itself to increase the intake of carbohydrates correct the diminished efficiency in carbohydrate metabolism.

    The utilization of proteins also falls away in the even on a deficiency in the vitamin B2. A deficiency of riboflavin can lead to the greater excretion of proteins in the urine. The increased urinary output may also lead to the excretion of riboflavin along with the proteins in the urine, a vicious cycle begins as more protein has to be excreted and more riboflavin is released from the body - increasing the state of deficiency.

    The human bodys requirement for riboflavin is also increased by high consumption of dietary fats. The fat will be deposited in the liver, in the kidneys, in the adrenal glands and along the arterial walls if insufficient riboflavin is supplied to handle the fat component of the diet.

    A deficiency of riboflavin in the human body leads to a disruption in the activity of the thyroid gland and can induce birth defects in babies - defects that affect the nervous system, the skin, the skeletal system and the vascular system in general. The capacity to learn diminishes in young animals that suffer from a riboflavin deficiency during the developmental stages. A riboflavin deficiency in young developing animals have lasting effects as supplying adequate levels of riboflavin to older animals does not restore the capacity to learn to normal levels.

    Physical symptoms such as inflammation in the tongue, in the lips or in the mouth can start to affect a person whose riboflavin demands in the metabolic process of the body exceeds the supply of the vitamin in the diet. Physical symptoms can also include eyes that become extremely sensitive to light and which burn or itch all the time, appearing bloodshot and teary at all times. Symptoms such as seborrheic - greasy scaling - dermatitis, begins to be apparent in the areas around the lips and the nose, in the skin around the eyes, in the skin behind the ears and in the scrotal sack. Many other factors can cause any of these physical symptoms. A riboflavin deficiency is indicated when all these symptoms affect a person at one time and the diet of the person is poor in nutrients.

    The greatest importance must be paid to the changes in the skin that occur in and around the eyes. The eyes of animals can be affected by opacities as a result of riboflavin deficiency; these changes in the eyes are similar to the problems caused by cataracts in people. A riboflavin deficiency leads to the development of corneal opacity in some people. A test was conducted by doctors on twenty two people affected by cataracts, during these tests the doctors found that eight of these patients suffered from deficiencies of riboflavin at the cellular level.

    Psychiatric disturbances can also be induced by a riboflavin (vitamin B2) deficiency. Six young men were maintained on a riboflavin deficient diet during a riboflavin deficiency study carried out under 24 hour medical supervision - the men were given whole sets of psychological tests during the trial. The young men experienced very significant levels of psychological change as soon as the deficiency started to manifest itself in the body. The young men became depressed and suffered from an increase in lethargy. Some of them complained about suffering from imaginary pains and illnesses - a medical condition called hypochondriasis. When measured on hysteria and psychopathic deviate scales - their scores were all high, and some of them underwent measurable personality shifts that were very significant. However, none of the classic symptoms seen during riboflavin deficiency - including problems like dermatitis and inflammation in the eyes affected the young men before the experiment ended. The men were again supplemented with riboflavin following the period of testing -which lasted about two months - the psychiatric symptoms took longer than two weeks to completely dissipate and the young men were restored to normal.

    High levels of riboflavin in the blood was studied by another group of researchers in another scientific study that measured the psychological effects of vitamins on people - the researchers associated high levels of riboflavin with greater extroversion, an ability to concentrate and general contentment with life.

    The ability of the muscles to perform is beneficially affected by supplements of riboflavin (vitamin B2). This vitamin given as supplements in moderate amounts to young athletes resulted in an eleven per cent boost in their ability to resist fatigue. The neuromuscular irritability of several young athletes who were given 10 mg of vitamin B2 in another study was lowered -this irritability is a biochemical measurement connected to physical fatigue. Before the experiments began, at least eight of the athletes were deficient in riboflavin and this could have played a part in the results witnessed. A riboflavin supplementation regimen could benefit athletes as the results from the tests suggest an increased requirement for riboflavin during heavy physical training and exercise. Vitamin B2 may in particular be of benefit to athletes who are required to exercise in the cold, the results from some animal experiments suggests that riboflavin given in high doses actually enabled rats to swim in cold water for longer periods of time - this could be true of humans as well.

    One of the ways in which riboflavin helps protect the body is by maintaining the functioning of the immune response and by helping in the detoxification of noxious chemicals in the body. People affected by a riboflavin (vitamin B2) deficiency also experience general decrease in cellular antibody production and a lowering of general cell level activity. The detoxification process in the liver is also actively aided by riboflavin, the vitamin helps detoxify hormonal chemicals like the estrogens and various other carcinogenic substances in the body, it also eliminates other harmful natural and synthetic chemicals that have found their way into the human body. There is general consensus among doctors that this vitamin may also be involved in the detoxification of the common poison, boric acid, this is based on the discovery that boric acid poisoning causes excessive levels of riboflavin to be found in the urine.

    Carcinogens or cancer causing chemicals found in the human body are also actively detoxified by riboflavin. During one experiment, rats given such carcinogens were spared from developing liver tumors by giving them riboflavin in high doses. At the same time, a deficiency of the vitamin riboflavin can result in the stimulation of the growth of tumors in the body. One example of an increase in utilization and need of riboflavin is show in the fact that less amounts of riboflavin than normal is excreted if a person suffers from cancer of the stomach, breast cancer, uterine cancer, or cancers of the skin and the lungs. This connection between tumors and riboflavin excretion has been demonstrated in one study involving a thousand adults with various cancers, in eighty per cent of such people there was virtually no riboflavin excreted in the urine, notwithstanding the type of tumor they suffered from at the time.

    The level of riboflavin (vitamin B2) required by active people is much more than the RDA for people who are less than active. Women who jogged twenty five to fifty minutes daily were placed on a controlled diet that included measurable amounts of riboflavin during on clinical investigation. The body of the women was subsequently tested for levels of the vitamin after the doses were varied during the study. A minimum of twice the RDA of riboflavin was required in the diet intake to raise the blood levels of riboflavin to levels that doctors considered an acceptable range for women. Therefore, it can be said that the bodys requirement for riboflavin is increased by physical exercise and metabolic requirements; this same requirement for riboflavin was increased in a weight loss diet as well.

    Foods items such as organ meats, sea foods and fishes, all dairy products and eggs, green leafy vegetables, wheat germ, whole grains and legumes form rich sources for riboflavin (vitamin B2). Heat does not degrade riboflavin in foods, however, soaking foods for long periods of time or cooking them in water can lead to substantial losses of the vitamin, as the vitamin is soluble in water and can leach away. Riboflavin is also degraded if it is exposed to strong light. There are a wide range of dosages of supplementary riboflavin, with tablets starting from one mg going up to hundreds of milligrams. There are no toxic side effects associated with riboflavin. The repeated failures experienced in many attempts to produce toxic reactions in the body of experimental animals using riboflavin has convinced researcher that no toxicity is connected to this compound. The absorption of this vitamin is increased and its rate of uptake in the body is hastened when it is consumed along with foods such as fiber rich vegetables.

    Long term alcoholics are more likely to suffer from a deficiency of the vitamin B2. People who suffer from cataracts or sickle cell anemia are also much more likely to be affected by a deficiency of riboflavin.

    Uptake of riboflavin by human-derived cultured liver cells is by means of a carrier-mediated, energy dependent,
    Na+-independent system which appears to be regulated by an intracellular Ca2+/calmodulin mediated transduction pathway and by substrate level in the growth medium (Said et al., 1998). The liver is the major storage site of the vitamin and contains about one-third of the total body flavins, 7090% of which is in the form of FAD. Free riboflavin constitutes less than 5% of the stored flavins. Other storage sites are the spleen, kidney and cardiac muscle. These
    depots maintain significant amounts of the vitamin even in severe deficiency states.


    Biochemical Functions

    Riboflavin functions in the intermediary transfer of electrons in metabolic oxidation-reduction reactions as two coenzymes, flavin mononucleotide (FMN) and flavin adenine dinucleotide (FAD). The riboflavin coenzymes function with a large number of oxidases and dehydrogenases important in normal metabolism. Those enzymes that use FMN include glucose oxidase, L-amino acid oxidase and lactate dehydrogenase. Those that use FAD include D-amino acid oxidase, cytochrome reductase, succinic dehydrogenase and acylCoA dehydrogenases, L-gulonolactone dehydrogenase, x-glycerophosphate dehydrogenase and glutathione reductase. The activity of the last enzyme in the erythrocyte responds directly to changes in nutritional riboflavin status and is therefore used as a clinical parameter for that purpose.

    The riboflavin coenzymes transfer electrons to the pyridine dinucleotides of the mitochondrial electron transport chain. Due to this role in energy metabolism, deficient intakes of riboflavin results in impaired efficiency of respiratory energy production. This may result in increases in feed intake by 10-15 percent. Reduced electron transport in riboflavin deficiency also results in specific pathologies in those tissues with the greatest normal respiratory rates.

    In animals, riboflavin deficiency results in lack of growth, failure to thrive, and eventual death. Experimental riboflavin deficiency in dogs results in growth failure, weakness, ataxia, and inability to stand. The animals collapse, become comatose, and die. During the deficiency state, dermatitis develops together with hair loss. Other signs include corneal opacity, lenticular cataracts, hemorrhagic adrenals, fatty degeneration of the kidney and liver, and inflammation of the mucous membrane of the gastrointestinal tract. Post-mortem studies in rhesus monkeys fed a riboflavin-deficient diet revealed about one-third the normal amount of riboflavin was present in the liver, which is the main storage organ for riboflavin in mammals. About 28 million Americans exhibit a common sub-clinical stage.[10] characterized by a change in biochemical indices (e.g. reduced plasma erythrocyte glutathione reductase levels). Although the effects of long-term subclinical riboflavin deficiency are unknown, in children this deficiency results in reduced growth. Subclinical riboflavin deficiency has also been observed in women taking oral contraceptives, in the elderly, in people with eating disorders, and in disease states such as HIV, inflammatory bowel disease, diabetes and chronic heart disease. The fact that riboflavin deficiency does not immediately lead to gross clinical manifestations indicates that the systemic levels of this essential vitamin are tightly regulated.
    9^ a b Brody, Tom (1999). Nutritional Biochemistry. San Diego: Academic Press. ISBN 0-12-134836-9. OCLC 212425693 39699995 51091036 162571066 212425693 39699995 51091036.
    10^ Powers J. Hilary. Riboflavin (vitamin B-2) and health, Review Article. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;77:135260
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  14. fozzaw

    fozzaw

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    I found riboflavin useless even at high doses. Sublingual FMN is more effective at a much smaller dose. Riboflavin conversion depends on adequate free thyroid hormone. You can try both and see which works better.
    merylg, Little Bluestem and brenda like this.
  15. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I have been reading that zinc deficieny may also be implicated:

    Zinc deficiency, which was described previously in severely malnourished children (31, 32), might also be implicated in the impairment of riboflavin conversion into its cofactors. Along with the thyroid hormone concentrations observed in groups S and C, estimation of energy and zinc intakes in severely malnourished children (group S) and moderately malnourished children (group C) might help explain the observed riboflavin concentrations in group S.

    Atinmo T, Johnson A, Mbofung C, Tindimebwa G. Plasma zinc status of protein-energy malnourished children in Nigeria. Acta Trop 1982;39:26574.[Medline]

    32. Laditan AAO, Ette SI. Plasma zinc and copper levels during acute phase of protein-energy malnutrition (PEM) and after recovery. Trop Geogr Med 1982;34:7780.[Medline]

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/4/978.full
  16. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

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    That is an interesting observation fozzaw. I remember first trying separate B2 in 2009 (someone posted about it on a forum somewhere, but I can't remember what forum it was, and who posted), but like you it didn't seem to do much for me. I was taking 100mg capsules, and I imagine I would have been swallowing them in one go. I'm taking the exact same capsules now (and getting a strong reaction), only I'm dividing them throughout the day (4 doses), and also crucially I am absorbing some of it sublingually since I am emptying the capsule powder directly on my tongue. I can feel it hit my brain as soon as I take some.

    Just out of interest what dosage of sublingual FMN are you taking, and does it need to be taken multiple times a day like riboflavin??? Am thinking of trying both to compare.

    Many thanks!
    p.s. thanks for the info on the zinc brenda - very interesting!
    Little Bluestem, Lou and brenda like this.
  17. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    As I have FMN, I will try it sublingually next dose
  18. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Myrtle Beach, SC
    hi Brenda

    Are you sure you want to do that? I'm no expert here, but I think DP was telling you that with your increased sweating you are starting to have some stronger detox reactions. If you take it sublingually, your symptoms may become worse. Just my 2 cents.
    brenda likes this.
  19. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi thanks Rand, I did think of that and decided to reduce the dose to about half just as a one off.
  20. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Hi fozzaw,

    It would be good, if you don't mind... if you could post this as well on the thread under General Treatment, Hair Mineral Testing so we can see what Dog Person thinks about this? Do you have any references where I could read about the role of free thyroid hormone with regards to Riboflavin absorption?

    Thanks,
    meryl

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