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B2 I love you!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Hi, I've been wondering, does anyone think there is much harm in overdoing B2? Don't you just pee out any excess? Or would it throw off everything? When I take what is considered a large dose I don't feel all that much...
     
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I don't think there's "harm", per se, in that there's not really any toxic build-up like there can be with minerals.

    But too much of the B's *can* mess you up. Research what Freddd says about having the wrong ratio of B vitamins (too much of any one, not enough of another, etc.). It can drive need for potassium, or paradoxical methylfolate insufficiency, etc.
     
  3. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Thanks so much : ) I was doing that sort of protocol when I wound up with the B2 deficiency though. I am glad Freddd's protocol seems to be good for most here, but my body says no, to that. I'm now trying to get back to where I started with having acquired immune system issues from doing the active B12 stuff...
     
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Tiger Lily, how much B2 are you taking? And do mind if I ask what type of immune system issues you acquired from doing the B12 stuff? Thanks
     
  5. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    @Violeta 50 mg plus whatever is in my multi, of the B2. I'm also increasing Niacin a little right now. Since I was doing more B12/folate for about 1.5 months, I want to increase B2/B3 for a few weeks to try to balance back.

    About 1.5 months after starting experimenting with the active B12 protocol, while I did improve fatigue-wise somewhat, I developed problems with demodex mites (invisible, microscopic things, but they are there- it's not neurological) on my skin/hair. It's something that happens due to immune dysfunction; common in people with lyme. I know a lot of stuff to do for it, but I'm having a great deal of trouble getting it under control right now, and it is a most troubling problem...

    I have read that B2 is suggested for treatment of this problem and I knew I was low in it due to not peeing yellow, dry lips and dry eyes. Yes, there could be other factors in the demodex problem (hormones, yeast, both of which I am addressing) but I find the timing very suspect.
     
    allyb likes this.
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Tiger Lily 813, thanks, I'm glad I asked. I have had that sensation, too, but didn't know about demodex.

    I stopped B12 and folate and started taking B2 after reading the I love B2 thread. I usually take 50 mg a day along with B5. I've seen it said that taking over 50mg for an extended period of time can cause problems, but I think it would most likely be an individual matter.

    I am wondering if the B12 and folate congested the liver, but don't have anything besides personal distress being helped by Chinese liver tinctures to base it on.

    B2 makes me tired, but it must be for a good reason because it's helping with other symptoms. I didn't take any before work this morning because it makes me zone out, and the floaters that I get in my eye came back.

    I'm having a hard time deciding if I should take B3 or not. How did you decide?

    That's interesting that B2 is recommended for a symptom of Lyme. If you have any sites that you recommend for reading I would definitely be interested. I will look around, too. Have you tried colloidal silver?

    Thanks,

    PS: I just read in this article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12791609 that it's not possible to take too much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  7. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Hi @Violeta I will PM you with more about the demodex problem so as to keep this thread consistent; I'm surprised you have that too. I am also interested in the liver tinctures!

    Yeah, I have been taking B2 at 5pm because if I take it in the morning I am in outer space, for awhile : )

    B3, I read about here http://mthfr.net/overmethylation-and-undermethylation-case-study/2012/06/27/
    According to Ben, (I'm saying this because even though he is obviously very educated I am hesitant to believe what anybody says about anything these days no matter the credentials) it slows down methylation and since I feel my body went through some sharp spikes of overmethylation on methylfolate, I thought it might help me.

    I've also read about Niacin being used as a serotonin increaser, and for use in Lyme disease. But again, I am very cautious about taking higher doses of anything based on anyone else's research because, for instance with Lyme, it doesn't really seem that people can agree on a definite system that helps, and the same goes for adrenal fatigue, CFS, etc. Freddd's protocol says to keep Niacin low, and Riboflavin, so it all goes by our own individual reactions I suppose. The other issue that makes B vitamins so confusing to balance is that they can't really be tested properly in bloodwork.
    Anyways, my current focus is on the immune system, and detoxification and I think that for my body B2 & B3 are needed : )
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
    Violeta likes this.
  8. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    50 mg is not a particularly large dose of B2 and if it is not turning your pee yellow then it is not more than your body can use. While you body will excrete what it cannot use, that puts stress on the kidneys and liver.
     
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Little Bluestem, thanks for your input. I take about 25 mg at a time, and my urine very quickly turns yellow. I didn't know it was hard on the kidneys and liver. I'll have to break the capsules down into smaller amounts and also take less per day.
     
  10. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Vitamin B2 only stays in your body a few hours. If you divided the 50 mg into 4 doses, it might not be too much. I was told to take just enough to turn my urine yellow 4 times/day.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Okay, thanks.
     
  12. B2trail

    B2trail

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    Hello all, my first post to Phoenix Rising although I have often looked at threads before. I have had an IBD - ulcerative colitis (UC) for many, many years. The fatigue is always there though. 40% of people with UC report fatigue as a consistent debilitating symptom even when not in flare, myself included, so IBD and CFS sufferers often have lots in common and maybe some of the same processes are going on in our bodies.

    I have joined because I think I may be going to get to love B2 very much as well! Thus wanted to be part of this thread to keep an eye on anything that is found out and to contribute too.

    My back story in case anyone is interested: Sorry if it is not form to put it here, I'm not familiar with this forum's etiquette yet.

    I have had a dreadful few years of both my UC being worse than usual and all sorts of fatigue, brain fog and anxiety type problems. Was looking everywhere for what could be wrong. I work in mental health, CBT therapy, and even took myself back to therapy thinking I must have developed social anxiety - but no, the head rushes and dizziness and weakness were always there, I was just more aware of them when others were around. Finally I realised, when I came off my B-complex supplements during a C Diff infection, that these may be a big culprit in my feeling bad but I went back on them after the infection cleared, thinking after two months of eating virtually nothing that I'd need the nutrition - dizziness back. Came off them - did better again. Throughout my time on these supplements I went from just out of range at the bottom end (which is why I was advised to start them) through to just in range at the top end (NHS UK recommended ranges)

    Then I came across the MTHFR discussions and saw all those illnesses in my family so decided to do a screen and found that I am homozygous for C677 at T. I then rushed in too quickly think that the methyl bs and P5P would be a great idea - once again I felt dreadful and the colitis really flared (and this has been the experience of several other posters on a colitis forum).

    So a few weeks ago I went onto steroids to clear the flare and, not only did they work for that, as happens with Prednisolone, I am full of energy and all the bits of me that were not working well change, whether it is circulation, menstrual cycle or waking up at 5am instead of 5pm.

    Thus I was thinking, if I am going to manage this naturally without steroid drugs that have dangerous side effects, what can I find that both enhances cortisol production in the body (as cortisol needed to dampen inflammation) and helps with colon mucous integrity. Meanwhile, I was studying the methylation cycle to understand why the protocol for MTHFR that I'd tried had been such a disaster for me and out came B2 like a beacon, flashing about how it is going to be stolen as a co-factor by the MTHFR enzyme as long as the folic acid demands it. I wondered what B2 deficiency might do in the body and have been amazed to find that it will damage mucous membranes and, according to the Baboon studies that I know were liked on this thread higher up, suppress adrenal cortex function. The baboon study used Prednisolone on the baboons and it mimicked the same effect as replacing the B2, although with different underlying mechanisms, Prednisolone is what works for my UC (but not for all sufferers by any means). Very importantly too, B2 can cause this borderline iron deficiency anaemia. I, in common with about 1/3 of UC sufferers, are always borderline anaemic, even when not bleeding from the bowel and this is very hard to treat as iron supplements tend to cause more problems than they solve in the bowel with UC.

    I have been looking up many studies about the complex interaction of folic acid/folates and B2 in the bowel. You may or may not know that folate is implicated in bowel cancer, although it can be protective too, with the c677t mutation seemingly making it more likely that dangerous changes will take place, even more likely if you have mutations in the SLC19A1 folate transporter, which I do. If any other B2 lovers are interested in the research and some experiences of B2 in relation to UC, I've posted a lot on this thread...http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2990185

    I plan to get a B2 blood test next week and after that will start to adjust my diet and possibly take B2 supplement to experiment. Although I am pretty scared of supplements now after what I've done to myself with my high dose B12 and folic acid. Looking around though I can't find any study suggesting that B2 can be dangerous if too high which is certainly not true of most vits and minerals. Although there could be problems with the new red blood cells released from bone marrow I have read.

    For some strange reason, there seems to have been scant research put into UC and its relation to B2, some of the other B vits yes, but not B2, which I find altogether strange given what is known so far. One thing is for sure, as soon as people get digestive problems they tend to cut out all the foods that are the highest in B2 - dairy, fortified baked products, and with UC you will be lucky if you can eat many leafy greens as a lot of the time the bowel is too inflammed to take them.

    So, that is all for now, I hope to be back with some news about how it is going eventually.......

    Thanks for listening :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
    aaron_c, Asklipia and Violeta like this.
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @B2trail, Welcome! Your B2 link to UC is very interesting. I'm so glad I found this thread, I don't know if I would have figured it out with out the information at the beginning of it posted by Dog Person. I've found that my dog needed it, too. One article posted in the thread says that it works well with Vitamin A for the eyes, and I bet that would apply to mucosal tissue, too.

    It is rather strange that there is scant research into UC and it's relation to B2. Actually, the most in depth article, at least that I've seen so far, about it's benefits even says that there are few human studies on the whole related to B2.

    Have you already seen information about histamines in connection to UC, chronic fatigue, and anxiety? If not, and you are interested, I can get some links. The good news is that prednisone is no longer the only solution.

    Taking B2 has helped with some symptoms, but it can make you feel sleepy. Just so you know and don't get discouraged. Also, both my husband and I got very itchy eyes the first week we were taking it.

    Also, not everyone would have this problem, but dairy doesn't seem to help me so I need to use the supplement right now. I did show an allergy to milk in an allergy test.

    Keep us posted on your results.
     
  14. B2trail

    B2trail

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    Hi Violeta - thank you for your reply. Before I write a long essay below that will send most to sleep. Do you or anyone have any research into which blood test is best? I can source either the EGRAC test or HPLC.

    Great to be able to talk to people with experience of this. I haven't seen the information on histamines, thank you. Will have to look into it. Histamines is another area I've not looked into a lot. I think I am probably OK with them because one of the most healing foods I seem to be able to eat is raw sauerkraut - which I understand is considered a high histamine food? Also, I tried taking anti-histamines a couple of times and always felt dreadful on them. I developed hayfever in my 30s (I am TT on rs2155219 and it seemed to start expressing only in the past 15 yrs, lucky I got past teen exams without it). As a child through my twenties I ate enough food with MSG in it to sink several battleships so not sure what that might have done to my glutamine signalling.

    That mixture of the healing properties of glutamine (or is it glutamate, I get confused with the relationship between them) for the gut along with the lacto-fermented bacteria is wonderful for me.

    On the other hand, will share the following as I know realise that it is probably very relevant to B2. I did find myself needing to use an anti-histamine cream a few years ago for leg rashes, before I was B-supplementing. Every month I would get this strange, itchy leg rash that would spread from the calf muscle area around the lower part of my leg, it spread along in an even manner, almost like it was building on itself as it went. Sometimes it would spread to the other leg and on the worst months it would be around the thigh area too. As usual, doctors were no help, well, one was some help, saying that is was down to poor vascular return in the area. I finally realised that it was happening at the same time every month, about 10 days before menstruation. Knowing as I did that B-vit status does affect PMT etc (because years ago I used to take the multi-vit magnesium OK and my pre-period pains disappeared), I started back at first on that magnesium-OK multi and the leg rashes stopped. I had put it down to the magnesium part as I know that it is implicated in skin problems but now I am also thinking that the B2 may have been what was helping it. When I did have them though, the only thing that would settle them was Benadryl cream, and I tried a lot for them. The rashes used to make me think about UC because it is said that UC inflammation will spread in that same way, starting off in the rectal area and spreading along the colon rather than appearing in patches as Crohns does.

    Now I read that B2 rashes are often associated with the calf area. The eyes are interesting too, I have had problems with burst blood vessels in my eyes over these difficult few years too.

    Also, I think we need to be careful and also research the evidence against using this, so we can be sure to protect ourselves. At the moment all the official advice that I have found says that it is safe but did just find this one study from 2013 that raises safety questions
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23311443
    Riboflavin at high doses enhances lung cancer cell proliferation, invasion, and migration


    Also, this study looks really technical but if anyone can manage to work through the science, good information on absorbtion
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183777
    Intestinal absorption of riboflavin, studied by an in situ circulation system using radioactive analogues
     
  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @B2trail, if you do well with sauerkraut you may be one of the fortunate people who do well with resistant starch. There's a thread about it that you might find interesting.
     
  16. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    If I remember correctly, 25 mg represents the approximate maximal absorption per dose, but taking more per dose or cumulatively poses now harm. I've taken up to a gram a day for a couple of years now, dividing the dosage throughout the day. (I'm not discounting the adjustment period, which lasted a couple of months, and can be a bit bumpy as riboflavin becomes available for starved reactions) I haven't had any negative effects.

    With many B vitamins synthesized in our gastrointestinal tracts, you can assume that the toxicity will be low. Also, is unique in that FAD/FMN come into play as a co-factor at many points in the citric acid cycle, so its effects are "balanced out." I think B2 can be considered non-toxic, but honestly I base this on reason more than review of studies.

    I think the more interesting question relates to why many benefit from B2, or rather, why would we become deficient in this in the first place? There is now evidence of perturbations of riboflavin metabolism in humans with some types of inflammatory bowel disease. What the researchers haven't figured out, that I think is relevant, is that there is a specific type of pathogen, where regulation of riboflavin synthesis, is handled very differently from other microbial synthesizers of riboflavin. This is something that evolved over millions of years in the host. I consider this yet another clue that the riboflavin perturbations are influenced by this class of pathogenic organisms.
     
    Tiger Lily 813 likes this.
  17. B2trail

    B2trail

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    Thanks Vegas, indeed, I have got on my to read list some of the writing that is coming out about B2 and bacteria such as this one
    http://www.scienceinpublic.com.au/arc-imaging/tcell

    On the colitis forums we are big on bacteria, especially as a lot of us get C Diff so we are well aware of the mystery of why Faecal Transplants cure over 90% of cases and the search for how the stool bacteria are performing this magic. About only 50% though of people with UC seem to be helped with FMT and they need lots of repeat courses of it Of course there is an overlap with CFS here with Borody in Australia saying he has convincing evidence that CFS helped when sufferers come for help with digestive issues.

    Violeta - I didn't know that people who find sauerkraut helpful had found they were the same as those who get on well with RS. That's really interesting, I am going to have to have a look at that thread. I learnt about RS last year in conjunction with butyrate because there are clinical trials going on for butyrate as a medicine for UC. Have been trying to up it but you have to take it very slowly with a damaged colon. Those of us who try it when out of flare do tend to find it very helpful.
     
  18. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    The part of this that is scary is "high dose". A common mantra around here is "start low, go slow". I was advised to do so with vitamin B2.
     
  19. B2trail

    B2trail

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    Thanks Bluestem. I started on a B12 complex with high B12 a good 5 yrs back before I had ever heard of methylation etc. This is because people with UC are monitored for B12 and folate and advised to be at highest end of range on blood plasma tests as possible (no red cell testing in NHS in UK). It was all good at first and it was a slow build of a range of nasty symptoms that I now realise are consistent with adrenal fatigue as well as colitis flaring up and down eventually more than it has done in years. Having found out I am homoz c677t of course seems to explain some of this. Possibly because of COMT homoz as well, not sure about that yet.

    This new work out this week yesterday that was discussed up thread a little and that I post a link for at 8.24pm is such an amazing coincidence to appear a few days after I get on the B2 Trail!! It is saying that the precursors for B2 in the colon seem to be a major reason why an unnecessary immune response wakes up in the bowel and starts attacking, causing the inflammation and ulceration. Seems B2 when taken as a vitamin is synthesised in the small intestine without these problems but when the precursors work together in the colon, they can get the harmful autoimmune response going. To me this could explain why I can't tolerate certain foods that produce B2 (particularly dairy) when in UC flare but OK when not.

    If I start anything, I am going to start small, small, small
     
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  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @B2trail, it looks like in that study that you linked above is saying that the immune system reaction is to precursors to B2 that are produced by bacteria and fungi, NOT to vitamin B2 taken as a supplement, or even to Vitamin B2 in any form, actually. Maybe someone else can read it and verify that.

    Besides that, though, it is recommended to take small doses of B2 at intervals throughout the day.
    @
     

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