1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 1 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. Part 1 of a 2-part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS. Part 1 focuses...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

B2 I love you!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    273
    Thanks triffid. Yes you are right.

    I am actually pretty well versed in NMDA receptor activity given my rare autoimmune disease. You can search on these forums, I have a number of posts discussing with others (especially Adreno) about NMDA receptor activation and various agonists and antagonists. I also think one overlooked aspect is the localized control of glycine and other various cofactors around the neurons on a dendritic branch. That is why blanket generalization about certain molecular entities is dangerous (i.e. "if I take glycine it will automatically activate my NMDA receptors" -- not correct).

    But yes I get 1600 mg of magnesium a day for just that reason :) Estrogen protection is good, but the correlation between estrogen levels in the serum and what is in the brain is not as tight as the medical community would like you to believe. The best test is ultrasensitve estradiol.

    Anyways in my other posts there are many other ways to handle glutamate activation of the NMDA receptors.

    I think my concerns with ammonia are not that I am anywhere near out of range, but more the fact that the more load the ammonia puts on BH4 the less BH4 I have for NO, peroxynitrite removal, neurotransmitters, the urea cycle, etc.
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    223
    Michigan
    Yes, I have BH4 issues as well and extreme blood pressure issues to put strain on it as well as the CBS +/+, the MTHFR 1298AC. I think you said elsewhere that my COMT +/+ takes the load off it, but not enough unfortunately as I always test low dopamine (high HVA and HIAA or whatever those metabolites are that says I am ripping through my neurotransmitters for some reason). I have had issues with ataxia due to the low dopamine. I seem to be ok now. I always eat low protein but just by choice. I am good with 80g. So the low protein gives me extra wiggle room I guess. I think we are off topic but if you have any more BH4 info to share I am interested, maybe on some other topic. My father died with no detectable level of BH4.
  3. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    223
    Michigan
    So... on topic...I'm sorry I can't read this whole topic. Does someone know why insufficient B2 would cause anger issues? Is there some biochemistry to explain that? Is there even a study to prove that?
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    407
    United States
    I haven't read this whole thread, but I read the last couple pages and it seems there has been some doubt to dogperson's theories. I don't have an opinion one way or another especially since I haven't read the whole thread myself.
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    223
    Michigan
    This wasn't info I gained from DogPerson. I actually got it from someone on here's doc, who prescribed it for them for anger issues.
  6. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    39
    Do those of you who use Yucca take it when necessary or daily as a prophylactic agent?
  7. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    B2 and anger issues :
    When angry, your left eye may get irritated. This is because of a deficit in acetylcholine, a hormone that tempers the more severe effects of adrenaline.
    B2 is involved in the production of acetylcholine.
    Be well!
    Asklipia
    Gloria H likes this.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    273
    Starting to take it as a prophylactic. I mean I eat protein every meal the largest amount at dinner. So I take 490 mg at dinner now. My only issue is it may irritate my upper GI tract a bit. I have to a do a clean differential study on it soon.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    407
    United States
    Does acetylcholine fit in with adrenal dysfunction and norepinephrine levels? If so, how? I found a page that discusses the acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine (adrenaline), but I realized I don't have the brainpower right now to make any sense of it.
    http://www.cvpharmacology.com/norepinephrine.htm
    I'll post the diagram, but there's more information in the link
    [​IMG]
  10. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    39
    I don't have the brainpower either, but I believe part of that diagram shows why I don't have a good reaction to supplemental vitamin d, as it rapidly increases the genetic expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (rate‑limiting enzyme for catecholamine biosynthesis).

    tyrosine hydroxyase --> dopamine --> NE

    In normal people this is potentially a good thing, but for some reason not for me .
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    407
    United States
    I think they do explain the diagram in the link I provided, but even that is too much for me right now:ill: Since I also seem to have a problem with NE I was wondering how acetylcholine fit in with it. Does supplemental tyrosine raise NE directly or only indirectly by increasing dopamine which then converts to NE?
  12. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    39
    Not sure how acetylcholine fits - that's the part I don't understand.

    I wouldn't think supplemental tyrosine would increase NE assuming your tyrosine hydroxylase is normal, as it's the enzyme that limits the conversion.

    Interesting link. Seems my issue with vit d (assuming my tyrosine hydroxylase theory is sound) could be a intracellular calcium imbalance and/or an over production of dopamine β-hydroxylase. From what I can tell I never get the dopamine.. just the NE effect.
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes:
    407
    United States
    I've been avoiding tyrosine because I was concerned that it would raise norepinephrine, but it only does that indirectly by increasing dopamine? I just ordered some pterostilbene to increase dopamine, but I don't want it turning into NE.

    What about SAM-e? I've read that supplementing it would increase norepinephrine. What about the SAMe that's produced through methylation? Is that the same thing as the supplement?
    cph13 likes this.
  14. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes:
    39
    Pterostilbene? Isn't that from blueberries? Huh.

    Raising dopamine is tricky.. If you're COMT -/- it doesn't hang around for long. It gets broken down and converted to other things (above). Also problematic is if you raise tonic dopamine (the background amount that gets released steadily) it makes it harder to feel it rise or spike like you're supposed to.

    I've yet to try SAMe - one methylation-related supp at a time for me. I don't know of a direct link between SAMe and NE. I do know that SAMe is a methyl donor, and NE needs methyl, so I suppose there is an indirect link.
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    273
    Quercetin is a COMT inhibitor and anti-inflammatory.
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    273
    Not directly. Acetylcholine often acts as in intermediary in the periphery. It is the dominant neurotransmitter in the periphery. Since epinephrine synthesis is in the adrenal glands, acetylcholine is involved. This is NOT where your excess levels of NE are coming from. That is likely directly form the sympathetic nervous system and NOT the adrenals (common misconception). Again I would repeat that the immune system and the sympathetic nervous system are often tied to one another.

    Have you made any progress in determining your inflammatory status?
    Do you know your COMT and/or MAO-A status for mutations? That can affect NE catabolism.
    Are you on any medications that would affect NE uptake?

    Nice diagram btw:)
  17. invisiblejungle

    invisiblejungle Senior Member

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    60
    Chicago suburbs
    When I take either tyrosine or phenylalaline, it definitely increases my norepinephrine. Tyrosine is also used as raw material for thyroid hormone, so it could also boost that, and depending on your adrenal hormone status, extra thyroid could be beneficial or harmful.

    SAMe would probably increase the production of all neurotransmitters. I would think that supplemental SAMe would have the same effect as endogenous SAMe.

    If you're willing to be a guinea pig, you could try a dopamine β-hydroxylase inhibitor. Howver, the only one I've seen available is disulfiram, which can have some pretty nasty side effects.
  18. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes:
    597
    UK
    I see that Christines site is back up but with no mention of the study.
    Little Bluestem and Asklipia like this.
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    A small update on our journey with Riboflavin (former updates along this thread):
    After about a year on Riboflavin, in the beginning of February 2013 we were taking every day
    - 50 mg B2 (in two takes)
    - 10 mg manganese
    - 3 mg melatonin + a little zinc and selenium at night.

    as well as 15 mg K2 as MK-4 once a week.

    We have been feeling completely normal for a couple of months. So we have stopped the K2. And our teeth went on feeling fine, which I take as a sign that we do not need any K2 any more.
    Still taking every day
    3 mg melatonin + a little zinc and selenium at night (Dr Pierpaoli's).

    25 mg B2 and 10 mg manganese every other day.

    The eyes are much better.

    I feel we have come out of the storm. Getting ready for the summer!

    We felt sick a couple of times, but we know why : once eating strawberries supposed to be organic but which were not, once cooking a chicken supposed to be organic but which had been dipped in some kind of chloride after being killed, once gassed at an airport, once eating too many baked beans which are really too full of folates!

    Not too bad, and nothing physical except feeling weird and in danger.
    I add this update to remind others that it IS possible to get better and taking supplements is not forever! At some point we woke up and life was back to normal. We do take extreme care in what we eat, where we go (no public places where the air is laden with pesticides), and do not over exert ourselves (but pack up quite a lot of work in a relaxed way).
    Lots of good wishes to all!
    Be well!
    Asklipia
    :devil: FFP :devil:
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  20. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes:
    1,727
    Midwest, USA
    That is really encouraging. I am so happy for you. :balloons:

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page