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Dr. Kerr, I presume?
Clark Ellis brings us a rare interview with British researcher Dr. Jonathan Kerr who is now living in Colombia.
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Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. invisiblejungle

    invisiblejungle Senior Member

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    You can contact ARL and ask if they have any practitioners in your area. Depending on your location, you might be able to purchase a test through them directly.

    Regarding ARL and TEI: ARL is the lab started by Paul Eck, and TEI is the lab started by David Watts, who studied with Eck. People have done experiments where they send identical hair samples to both labs, and the results were nearly identical.

    Since they don't wash the hair samples, ARL and TEI are known to be the most reliable when measuring hair mineral levels. However, I've heard that for toxic metals, Doctor's Data is the most accurate.
     
    Xara likes this.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've read some stuff by Lawrence Wilson who bases a lot of his theories on Dr. Eck.
     
  3. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    The person who does mine is a clinical dietitian. I'm fairly sure she has sent the results to my MD in the past, but then my MD referred me to her. (This reminds me that the next time I have a hair test I need to see if she will FAX the results to my MD to save me making copies to take with me.)
     
    Xara likes this.
  4. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Personally I think some of what Lawrence Wilson says is interesting and other parts of it are really, really out in left field (and not imho in a good way). My practitioners warned me NOT to follow ARL's recommended treatments for the imbalanced ratios as apparently the recommended doses are often whacked.
     
  5. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    My practitioner gave me TEI's analysis with my first test only and that was in conjunction with a consultation with her. I noticed that in their discussion of my out-of-balance ratios, they were assuming one mineral was out of range when, in my case, the other mineral was out of range.

    I do not think that a 'canned' analysis is a good thing. You need an educated person to look at your results and make recommendations specifically for you based upon them.
     
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I've ordered hair tests from mineralcheck.com who are based in the UK and use Trace Elements as the lab (ie they don't wash the hair).
     
    Xara likes this.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I totally agree with you about Lawrence Wilson to the point where I almost want to disregard everything he says. However, the stuff he says about sympathetic dominance and adrenal fatigue make a lot of sense to me. His information about copper toxicity is what made me suspect that for myself, but I haven't been able to confirm that. My symptoms are most likely from improperly functioning adrenals, but my understanding was that copper could play a part in adrenal problems.
     
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    He is not the first by any means to push the sympathetic dominance idea. That has been around a long time. Heck that stuff is big in the metabolic typing community for example.

    Simple way to answer the copper question is to get serum levels checked and do a hair test in parallel. That should be enough to tell you if it is an issue or not.
     
  9. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    And if you can't find an educated person? Would the outcome and the analysis be of SOME use to an interested layman? I am hinting at doing the interpretation of the results myself. Or is it easy to lose track?
     
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Someone was telling me that in Ayurveda the Vata dosha would be considered sympathetic dominant and Kapha would be parasympathetic.
     
  11. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I think that unless you were a well-informed layman, it would be easy to do the wrong thing. Minerals are not straight forward. Sometimes if one is low, you need to lower something else or raise something else first.

    My iron has been in the normal range, but falling ever since I started testing. Last spring it was at the very bottom of the normal range and my lead had come up giving me a bad iron/lead ratio. I asked my dietitian if I should start supplementing iron and she said "No". When I asked her why not, her reason did not make sense to me.

    I was on the verge of starting iron supplementation anyway when Dog Person came along and convinced me that I really did not want to do that. My iron has now come up a little on it's own and the lead has gone down. Doing what made sense to me could have been bad for my body.
     
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  12. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    PLEASE NO NOT CONTACT ME ABOUT CHRISTINE AS I HAVE NO FURTHER INFORMATION. THANKS.
     
  13. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I thought that Christine had told me that she would post the research paper on her website when it was published. I have been checking the website from time to time for it. When the website was gone last month, I e-mailed Christine asking about the paper, but also because I was concerned about her health.

    There is no paper yet. They are still researching. They were just then starting a new 10 dog study. I think this was because of some new, unexpected information. That can happen when you do real research without preordained results.

    She is still working with one person with ME/CFS. I assume that is the person she was working with before she came here. If they figure out anything definitive, maybe that person will share it somewhere online.

    She took down the website because she was still getting requests for hair analysis even though the site said she was currently doing only research. Since she is continuing to do research, I assume she is in reasonable good health.

    I asked her to let me know if the paper was available online, once it was published. If she does, I will share that here.
     
    Asklipia likes this.
  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Thank you, Little Bluestem!
    I am relieved to know that she is still doing research and wish her well!
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm still not sure what to think about manganese deficiency since I get plenty from my diet, but I did find this conversation about manganese and excitotoxicity between Rich and Asklipia interesting.
     
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  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I have wondered about manganese supplementation for myself. Supposedly the oral bioavailability in many foods is not very high. So hard to judge if I get enough or not. The hair analysis I did showed it was low but that may mean it is sitting in biounavailable forms in the interstitial spaces.

    However, I am not sure I buy into a strict anti-glutamate food warning at least for people with normal blood brain barrier integrity. (Yes I know many people are getting sick of me bringing up the blood brain barrier and the assumption of normal is probably ill advised at best for those of us on these forums).

    Rich and I had a private discussion on this and never really agreed I suppose, but at least he tended to not favor the low protein restricted diets for CFS patients.

    The reason is that while glutamate is excitatory it cannot cross the blood brain barrier under regular conditions. The tight regulation of glutamate and GABA in the CNS vs the periphery is very important to the body and CNS. The only way to cross the blood brain barrier is by conversion back to glutamine and the glutamine shuttle between the brain and body is an exquisite piece of engineering when working right.

    Things like MSG are different. MSG is a CNS absorbable form of glutamate. Just like Picalon is a highly CNS absorbable form of GABA (beware tolerance effects though).

    That being said ingested glutamate can certainly affect the body especially the GI tract and the ANS at the various peripheral nerve plexuses. The latter of these could maybe a gateway to the brain via direct signaling connection that could overload specific parts of the brain but that is way beyond my knowledge level.

    True glutamate excitotoxicity (which many of us have sadly experienced) is usually brought on by dysfunction in the regulation of the glial cells and / or astrocytes involving the production, conversion, or catabolism (don't forget that one) of the "big three" of glutamate, GABA, and glutamine in the actual CNS. Don't let anyone kid you while dopamine, serotonin, NE and acetylcholine are all important in the CNS, something like 60-70% of your glial cells in your brain are devoted to one of those "big three".

    The exception for the absorption argument is again people with BBB integrity issues but even then it is not clear how likely ingestion effects would be the primary cause of excitotoxicity unless large amounts were taken. And before people jump in with the sensitivity argument, ask yourself what is the mechanism why that person is sensitive to say ingested glutamate? E.g. how does it cause a CNS excitotoxic problem if they eat a bunch of soy? For some of us on these forums it probably would, but again how does it happen? Don't just bail things out by only calling it "sensitivity". That mantra usually gives no insight.

    On the other hand a problem with glutamine synthetase activity in the CNS can be a REAL problem. Remember that glutamine synthetase is also the only real way for the CNS to remove ammonia in any significant amount.

    I personally don't agree with the alternative practitioners who have pushed the idea of no glutamate in all protein rich foods. Studies have shown the glutamate in things like meat and milk do not demonstrably raise serum glutamate levels in the periphery as they are efficiently converted to glutamine in the gut (unless the person has suffered GI damage due to Celiac's or related conditions). The glutamate in grains, soy, etc. are a different story and can flood the periphery but the BBB is supposed to be the guard / watchdog for the CNS. All of this is probably out the window when dealing with autistic children as someone like Dr Yasko and others since there a lot of things have to be based purely on clinical observations of sensitivities.

    Personally I think the over-production of ammonia can be a big excitotoxic trigger in the CNS that can really imbalance the neurotransmitters and essentially shift body chemistry. I experienced this first hand last week when left to my own devices I ate a 1.5 lbs of hamburger meat and 4 chicken legs at one sitting ... not fun ... all I can say is I am thankful for Yucca for such emergencies.

    Now I am saying all of this one caveat. Due to my autoimmune disease (SPS), glutamate in the CNS can be a real problem for me. My blood brain barrier is a pretty leaky wall (though it has improved some over time). And I have Celiac's. Even then glutamate in nuts and meat don't seem to affect me (unless I go berserk in the aforementioned episode, and even then I had mostly problems with muscle pain not CNS problems, i.e. I slept fine and had no insomnia, just cramped everywhere in my skeletal muscles). So take what I say with a grain of salt.
     
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  17. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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  18. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    There are things that protect against glutamate toxicity:
    estrogen (you can google the studies)
    magnesium (glutamate toxicity is caused by magnesium being stripped from the NMDA receptors)
    ammonia not out of range (this is the low protein connection...but ammonia is typically only out of range in
    high protein diets, low magnesium diets, kidney failure, CBS genetic defects)
    There are other things. Google and study NMDA receptors (gating).
     
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't really know anything about glutamate in foods. I already have a bunch of different diets I'm supposed to follow so I'm hope you're right about that. Some people have said that taking supplemental glutamine can increase glutamate, but I don't quite understand that. There's a lot of glutamic acid in protein so that means eating protein would cause huge amounts of glutamate if that were true. Rich has talked about dealing with ammonia in other threads, but the first post of his I quoted he was actually talking about excitotoxicity related to methylation and it not being a good idea to "push through" in regards to overmethylation.
     
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I take 5-6 grams of glutamine a day for gut integrity and to fight muscle catabolism. I don't see any problems with glutamate for myself. And I would know the effects due to my specific autoimmune disease, trust me. That being said, each person may be a bit different depending on how they interconvert things in the periphery. If I take glutamine late at night by accident I get maybe some increased energy and my clock shifts a bit. But I have been up to 12 grams without big issues. It certainly does not cause glutamate storms which I have sadly had many past experiences with given my SPS. Mr NMDA and I have a long hate / hate relationship. I also don't buy that glutamine necessarily raises ammonia either. It is more complicated than that. Besides the body makes like 100+ grams of glutamine a day on its own. I have some other posts talking about glutamine to GABA to glutamate connections in the brain and periphery.

    Anyways I know of Dr Yasko's stern warnings against glutamine. I personally don't buy them ... at least for my physiology. Biochemical pathways are not the single solitary things which MDs tend to focus on. They are interconnected reaction pathways in equilibrium with each other. Many MDs react to individual genetic polymorphisms or individual reaction steps for treatments. Unfortunately that is now how biochemistry works; otherwise it would make my profession MUCH easier.

    I eat 200-250 grams of protein a day. I probably have some borderline ammonia issues (my serum ammonia is in normal range but at a 60-70 it probably is putting stress on my BH4 levels I don't want). But I am not flipping out on glutamate. Some people contend there are differences between free glutamates in some foods and bound in others as terms of there impact in the periphery. I can see that being applicable but then MDs see some of these effects and put out blanket warnings. I think people with Celiac's or related disorders are at the most risk in the those cases with the free form glutamic acids simply because their condition has directly damaged their ability to convert free glutamates into glutamine like they are supposed to. That often gets overlooked when people talk about Celiac's or gluten intolerance.
     

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