Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.
As to manganese and glutamates, Rich has just posted this :
Not that clever, actually.
As to manganese and glutamates, follow up:
Hi Rich, thank you for your input.
In that case, what happens to the manganese? Would a continuous supply of glutamates bring on a manganese depletion, or is that same manganese used over and over again?
Well, it definitely looks like a fake folate input will deplete manganese in the long run and precipitate a B2 deficiency too.
Which would explain why we feel better on a diet without fake folates + B2/manganese. For the moment.
Manganese and excitotoxicity
Nearly 20 weeks on B2/Manganese. For the last few days there has been a slow but definite rise in excitotoxicity and I can now understand why.
We have both felt all the signs of a liver flush (both did quite a lot of those 10 years ago). This means that the manganese is actually flushing the liver.
After every one of the first 30 or so liver flushes we did (Hulda Clark style - no manganese there), we had very violent symptoms of excitotoxicity, lasting from 5 to 7 days, and eventually becoming milder and milder as we did more flushes. After the 30th or so liver flush there was most of the time no excitotoxicity following.
With kinesiology testing, we had found a high level of glutamates in the stones rejected. The stones after the 30th liver flush did not seem to contain glutamates at a high level.
When you do a liver flush, the contents of the flush are expelled from the body fairly fast.
If the manganese provokes a liver flush, the contents do not leave so fast and are reabsorbed in good part. If there are glutamates in the contents, you are in for a wave of excitotoxicity. Which may be what had happened to the people who suffered from excitotoxicity when on manganese.
After a liver flush we used to take Vitamin C 2 g + Taurine 1 g, twice a day and this helped a lot. We have done the same this week as soon as we understood what was going on and all excitoxicity symptoms have subsided in 24 hours.
I hope this helps someone.
Lots of good wishes,
I just want to note that while it's important to have enough manganese in the body to carry out its important functions, it's also important not to overdose on it. The safe upper limit has been set by the Institute of Medicine at 11 milligrams per day for adults. Excessive levels of manganese produce symptoms similar to those of Parkinson's disease. It is especially important to beware of manganese overdose if the liver function is below normal, because excess manganese is normally excreted via the bile.
I favor measuring the level of manganese in a blood test if in doubt about the level.
20 weeks into B2/Manganese
Update from post #526 in bold the new observations
Still taking 75 to 100 mg B2 + 10 mg Manganese chelated + 1 teaspoon WaterOz ionic Manganese every day. (change : Manganese 10 mg chelated OR 1/2 teaspoon WaterOz) see my post on manganese and liver flush
No other supplements except :
- daily: 15 mg Menatetrenone (MK-4) with breakfast; Melatonin 3 mg + Zinc 8.7 mg + Selenium 50 mcg (these last three in the same preparation at night).
- on Sundays : 3 mg adb12
- Enzymatic Therapy 1 mg mb12 three times a week
What I notice compared to 4 weeks ago when I was 16 weeks into this protocol:
- a good bit more energy; even more energy (can now swim 1.5 km every day before I live the rest of my day)
- sleep = good sleep with no tension. Waking up a bit later than before. Same but no dreams (I think from excitotoxicity last week)
- no bouts of sadness/depression/feeling overwhelmed; same
- less affected by other people's depression!!!!!! Much less empathy!!! same
- No more queasy feelings in stomach. Same
- since the beginning of supplementation, very easy and slippery bowel movements. Transit was never a problem in the last year but now it seems there is a lot of lymph (or something oily) coating the matters. Colour normal, not very dark though; same
- pee is back to absolutely normal colour; same
- no more stuff coming out of my scalp and ears; same
-I see lots of new hairs. Also hair/nails growing noticeably faster. same
- hearing more or less back to normal, with sometimes lower accuracy for a couple of hours; same
- no improvement in blurry vision. VERY BIG CHANGE again see later
- one shoulder hurting sometimes, much less; no more pain
- no forgetfulness at present same
- irritation of the eyes in the morning on waking up only; no more eye irritation when waking up
- husband sees his floaters kind of "unravel" at the ends floaters back to what they were before :-(
- husband just found out that two small hardened lymph balls under finger pads, having been there for years and resistant to massage have disappeared all lymph balls completely disapppeared
- husband has much better grip, like when he was 20 years old
- my balance is back!!! Can stand one one foot when putting on swimming costume without staggering! Also ran downstairs yesterday! (4 flights of stairs... I realized I had done it when I was at the bottom and that it was something like a blast from the past...)
- pasty mouth (not too bad) on waking; not dry anymore, a bit pasty - same
- sometimes a lot of mucous coming out of my sinuses - this stops after a couple of hours; gone
- hair getting greasy after a couple of days; gone
- less appetite same
- sunbathing but no tan!!! see my post #463 - same
- no more stretch marks see my post #480 - same
- I have seen two coin sized brownish areas appear on my jaw, where my teeth used to have amalgams (long removed). Not nice! But one has started to fade so there is hope. Nearly three quarters gone
- eyes : the myopia went down further to -2, and absolutely no astigmatism left. This lasted for two weeks. Then it crept back to -12.5 (approx.) and same astigmatism I had before.
Lots of good wishes,
No one around with something interesting to share?
Definitely the B2/Manganese is helping with our weight. We had not weighed ourselves for a long while, living in very loose clothing because it was summer here and very hot. However this morning we have tried our warmer clothes and they are not fitting tight at all!!!!
It turned out that we lost each 4 or more kg since we began.
And I can certify that it is not due to our diet, which is extremely precisely regulated.
Could it be the B2 improving metabolism? Protective of glycation?
This is all I found :
Well I'm only lurking here and most time don't contribute. Bud loosing weight is something I like to do also. I have puroluria so I don't go on B2 alone. Bud I'm traying to take it in comparison with P5P and zink, because I have proven nitrostress I also take hydroxy cobolamin. I had a huge reaction on the B2 (like on most medication) so now I go slow on it. This weekend I visit a seminar of the Europian, laboratory of nutrienten. It was very interesting with allot of DAN scientists and what I already learned from presentations of dr Ben Lynsch, B2 and P5P are huge cofactors in the methylation pathway. So I high this up for a few monts before I start the methylathion program.
I must say that in some eareas I feel better already. Loosing weight would be very welcome.
Asklipia good to hear of your continued progress. You might be interested in having a quick look at my Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis. Keep in mind I was unable to tolerate Manganese as a supplement in any way, due to gastric irritation. Maybe I can tolerate some food sources??? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/hair-mineral-testing.15099/page-28#post-295327
Anyway my low Manganese fits into Christine's theory, along with my high Copper, low Molyb. Hmmm I had persisted taking B2 Riboflavin for some 9 mths now & struggled to get a little Manganese. CoQ10 I could not tolerate (headaches). B12 I cannot tolerate even at 3.125 micrograms! I think this is probably due to overdosing myself (which is supposedly hard to do!) with B12 on the methylation protocols. Interestingly two GPs were not alarmed at my high serum B12 levels (but I was!!!).
I think the high Cobalt (in my Hair test) is a reflection of the high serum B12 & possibly the reason I cannot tolerate any more???!!! Open to other interpretations...(no bridges or dentures that could contain Cobalt...and avoid drinking from Cobalt blue ceramics!). Now how to get rid of this cobalt???
Found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16767456 scary in view of my sudden onset Dry Eye whilst on B12 & low dose Gabapentin (100mg)...had stroke-like popping episode behind eyes
Hi merylg! Thank you for the good wishes!
I am not at all qualified to interpret your Hair Tissue Analysis, however a lot of things seem to be OK!!! I am so glad for you!
I do not interpret things as a doctor would do, just have an EXTENSIVE - experience of what things turn out OK or not for me and my husband.
Here are my ideas, I hope this helps :
- High serum B12 : I think this is a sign of leaky gut.
- High Cobalt : so sorry that DogPerson is not here to help. As you say, it could be linked to the high serum B12. Even if you had a replacement hip it would have to crumble to poison you the way described in your link!
I think that you have taken serious steps to supplement to bring your body into balance but that there is something ELSE that you are doing REGULARLY that is defeating the purpose.
Are you taking care of your gut by drinking regularly home-made bone broth (NOT bought, even if it says organic : this is pure poison, and addictive too). And taking three teaspoons of coconut oil a day, this helps enormously with the gut (careful that many coconut oils now contain hydrogenated fats, to make them more durable. A coconut oil which is not solid at air-conditioning temperature is sure to contain hydrogenated fats, but there are aso hard ones which have been tampered with)..
I also had such an episode behind eyes at the beginning of Riboflavin supplementation (maybe 1-2 months into it). This had happened to me in the past too, with no Riboflavin but with Bains Derivatifs. This means some irritation behind the eyes must be abating brutally. Terrifying and the first time I even had a vitreous detachment. Since I am going blind anyway, I just went on with B2. This last week my eyes have improved again. So if it happens again, I shall do like last time, lots f bains dérivatifs, cooling of the eyes; rest no reading, lay down in the dark.
Lots of good wishes merylg!
Beware of FFP
Also I forgot :
About CoQ10 giving you headaches : there are two types of CoQ10, Ubiquinone and Ubiquinol. Ubiquinol is supposed to be much more effective, but it is vastly more expensive because not easy to make.
When you have problems with vitamins B6 and B12, which I suppose is our case never mind the testing, you cannot use the cheap Ubiquinone, it has to be Ubiquinol.
I personally have never used CoQ10, because even though everybody was telling me it was miraculous, I did not like the feeling I had with it (remember, I came all the way out of this mostly on my feelings and observations) and I threw it away. This was more than 6 years ago, so I cannot tell you if it was Ubiquinol or Ubiquinone.
Another reason why I did not try it again is that a Korean doc met on a plane told me that it was not a good idea to supplement at the same time Vitamin K2 (menatetrenone MK-4) and CoQ10. Because the CoQ10 and the K2 used up the same ingredients. If I used CoQ10, which was a weaker/ not so valuable product(?), I would lose on the benefits of K2. If I used K2, I would get most of the results of CoQ10 plus some, extremely valuable and rare effects of the K2.
I have always wondered what he meant exactly but followed his advice. I have tried to find out but I don't have the scientific background to get this information, which, if it is available on the internet, must be pretty well hidden.
Maybe someone can help? Rich!!!!!!
As to the headache, I don't know, but maybe it is related to my "bad feeling"
Be well !
Thanks for the ideas. I recently purchased some quality solid coconut oil. I have been applying it to the last remaining small patch of eczema on my L hand. After only 2 applications it is healed, but I will keep it up for a week or so...I attribute the healing to the Monolaurin. (The B2 Riboflavin had a part to play in starting to heal my hands)
I am also keen to use it to help heal gut. I wasn't sure about dose. I had tried some in cooking but maybe used too much. Three teaspoons/day sounds tolerable. I'll try it.
Bone broth...have heard discussions about that...thanks for reminder!
Hubby has had 2 hip replacements. The surgeons are now testing all their patients for toxic levels of metals. He joked that if anyone should have high Cobalt it would be him!
I was told 5 teaspoon a day for the coconut oil. I did it at first but now I only do this in the summer because I prefer the bone broths in the winter. Also my gut is now perfect so it is just for the fun of it.
I do a nice one and take a cup several times a day :
Boil the bones with a tomato, an onion, carrot (optional), a handful of grated coconut, a stick of ginger or turmeric, a good measure of coconut oil, salt, a handful of karipatta leaves (don't know in English it is this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry_Tree)
Throw the bones away, liquidize.
I'm still around, but don't have anything interesting to share. I am starting to add back in some of the supplements that Christine told me to stop. I assumed that was to be temporary, until I got my B2 levels up. I am going to get a hair retest 'soon' from my regular dietitian and also discuss the results with my physician (should have done that last time).
Well today I have something really interesting to share!!
Some of you may know from my former posts that I firmly believe that the cause of my troubles (and I suggest of many other people here) is Fake Folate Poisoning.
I crept out of this hole by eliminating ALL of the glutamates around (which includes of course hydrogenated anything, including in supplements, and of course all fake sweeteners and HFCS).
To do this was not easy, for one because addiction brought me again and again to consume these products, but after a while, my will was stronger. The problem is, it takes 5 days to break the addiction physiologically, and you rarely get these 5 days because you unknowingly consume the product again.
They are in EVERYTHING!!!!! Especially what you like to eat or drink.
This meant our health was much improved, but we had unexplained relapses, with terrible anguish because we thought we were NOT eating/drinking that. Battling the invisible ennemy with your health deteriorating and your brain getting worse and worse.
An added problem was that when you stop the Fake Folates, it seems you make more receptors to them and if you take them again by mistake, you are even sicker.
We have solved this problem eventually with pendulum testing. We test everything that comes into the house. And we discovered with horror that the kitchen was full of them (even in organic products!!!).
Now we are better but have not managed to help other people because they cannot test with the pendulum accurately (we both do it so this is an added security). That or they firmly do not believe it works.
So this is it. We cannot help others to separate what contains the Fake Folates and what does not.
If you cannot make out where the poison is, you cannot fight it.
I have just met a young girl who is diabetic and uses a glucometer. From my first observations I can see that everything that raises her blood glucose brutally is on my Fake Folate list.
For those of you who are using a glucometer, it could very well be your pendulum (the problem is you have to eat/drink the stuff before testing, but hopefully can compound a NO-NO list.
For those who don't, there seem to be a lot of research into making a no-pricking glucometer available. I am going to buy one as soon as they are on the market!!!!!! To cross-check with my pendulum.
Lots of good wishes!
I thought of something sort of interesting to share. Last week I had fairly severe diarrhea. I did not have cramping or discomfort with the diarrhea. My digestive system was slightly uncomfortable and I felt 'yukky' afterwards. The effluent was rather yellow, which I think indicates a high bile content.
I remembered reading Asklipia's post about her manganese induced liver flush and wondered if I was having the same thing. I have reduced my manganese from 8 mg twice a day to 4 mg three times a day. So far, the problem has not recurred.
For me too the problem has not recurred.
And the excitotoxicity I experienced last time after the mini flush is now accounted for : I had for a week been using ground cumin instead of whole, and that I found contained MSG.
Interestingly, we did not get excitoxicity immediately after I started using it, as would have happened in the past.
Obviously the B2/manganese has brought a delay in the reaction. Maybe because we are getting better?
However, after the liver flush induced excitotoxicity we suffered for 5 days as usual.
So I am not sure yet if manganese induces excitotoxicity or not.
It does bring on a mini liver flush if taken in excess.
Feeling bad after that depends I think on what was in that liver flush. But it could be the manganese too.
Did you have excitotoxicity after your diarrhea, Little Bluestem?
Lots of good wishes,
I do not think I had excitotoxicity. Actually, I am not sure what that feels like. I just felt 'yucky' and stayed in bed until mid-afternoon. I felt better and did a few things for 2 or 3 hours, then was 'yucky' during the evening. I was my normally unwell self the next day.
= Liver Flush without extra magnesium at the end to speed flushed matters out.
Thanks. Our problem was all due to the cumin powder! Both feeling quite well nowadays.
Lots of good wishes!
So if it happens again, would some extra magnesium reduce the yuckiness afterwards?
You can also try a Google Site Search
Separate names with a comma.