1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 2 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. This second article in a 2-Part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS....
Discuss the article on the Forums.

B2 I love you!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    223
    Michigan
    Maybe it depends on whether or not you are deficient in zinc. My father was unable to pass the driver's ye test and lost his license. He also had gripping heartburn after each and every time he ate and a drippy nose and frequent diarrhea. He was on a restricted protein diet for stage 4 kidney disease so it stood to reason he was low zinc. In fact, I think it is CRIMINAL that his doctor did not tell him to supplement zinc when he put him on a low protein diet. I got him taking 18mg zinc / day, a very conservative dose, and that is the ONLY change. In 2 months, his nose stopped dripping, he stopped having the gripping heartburn, he passed his driver's eye test and got his license back, and seldom gets diarrhea. Don;t get me wrong, he is still a very sick man - from diabetes to kidney disease, pacemaker, and the works...including very debilitating PEM...but he is unwilling to do much supplementation and he is on so many meds that I am certainly unwilling to take responsibility for navigating that w/o killing him (drug-supplement interactions!). I was exstatic with such a conservative change that he made such significant progress.

    Triff
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    223
    Michigan
    Wow. I take 100mcg/day of K2 because Life Extension says studies show the calcium you take does not go into your bones w/o it. However 100mcg has no discernable effect on me...I never dreamed of trying 15mg. Do you have to take more calcium or anything else to go with it? I have osteopenia but it is not actually my biggest issue so I was happy to take a small pill and have it work its small change, and never suspected one could achieve more. I am also deathly allergic to MSG but DHEA protects me from it. I always read labels and try to avoid it. It almost killed me once.
  3. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    If your 100 mcg K2 is menaquinone-7 (MK-7), it is not such a low dose.
    The K2 I take is menaquinone-4 (MK-4), that is menatetrenone.
    MK-7 is dangerous at high dosage. I would not dream of taking more than 150 mcg MK-7. In fact, I prefer not to take any MK-7 as a supplement.

    I do not take extra calcium, there is plenty of calcium around in food. But you have to take vit D, if possible by sun exposure. And as I found out lately, a bit of manganese.
    Here is a thread with more answers :
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/has-vitamin-k-2-mk-4-or-mk7-helped-you.15605/

    Be well!
    Asklipia
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    HI Ask --

    Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it, and find it fascinating...does make sense that the k2 (mk4) would help with the bone issues (I can relate, w/jawbone and resulting teeth problems) especially since we don't get it in the diet very much, plus a lot of us have gut issues as well. Also, we're told to 'up' the vitamin D, but I wouldn't be surprised if 99 out of 100 docs fail to also point out the importance of vitamin K along with the D.

    Also thanks for the reminder regarding how "K" helps mop up glutamates. I had read that several times a few years ago...but I guess I never paid enough attention. (Mushy Brain Syndrome.)

    Totally understand your need to conserve energy and not post every minute detail at once and am grateful for what you've posted so far. Very encouraging and intriguing as well. :)

    But next time, when you feel up to it -- now that you've left a "teaser" (!) -- I'd like to hear more about what you mean by "Fake Folate Poisoning".

    ???

    Thanks again.
    Little Bluestem and merylg like this.
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    Also...one more question: Did you take the mk4 for awhile before you started any supplementation with vitamin D? Or were you taking D before you started the K? I ask because whenever I've taken "D" in the past, my teeth tend to feel 'looser', and I get a feeling of bone spurs in my neck...but I've never taken the mk4 for more than a month or so, and when I did take it, it wasn't every single day. So I'm wondering/guessing/assuming that I'm probably quite deficient in "K".

    ???
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
  7. Blossom1

    Blossom1

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    20
    Asklipia, I would also like to hear more about your fake folate theory whenever you have the time/energy to post. I really appreciate what you have contributed to the thread (the bains derivatifs have also been wonderful). I have receding gum problems so I tried the thorne natural mk-4 drops (starting with 1 mg 2x a day since 5 mg was way too much for me at first). I had neck pain, mild muscle cramps and very hard heart pounding with some chest pain as well as some white coating of my tongue (this indicates a folate deficiency for me); although my gum pain went away for the first time in a year. Taking methyfolate helped, but I ended up needing to take about 5 mg of zinc (even less than what you take) and the negative symptoms almost completely disappeared. Also, the zinc gave me red itchy eyes so I had to take b2 to make that go away. I think the zinc is more important than you know; perhaps the vitamin K/zinc/b2 combination is what is making the stretch marks go away. Did you have any negative symptoms with starting mk-4?

    BTW, I'm assuming the "important part" above is that the experienced bears only eat the fattiest parts of the fish (eyes, skin, and brains) when they aren't starving and have a choice about what to eat.
    Hanna likes this.
  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Hi Blossom1!
    Thanks for the feed back? How did/does this help you? Are you still doing it? Why? or Why not?


    This is indeed the most important part, but what does it mean exactly? I'll help you a little : did you ever eat fish eyes? Or if you did not, did you see any fish eyes from near?

    Since you are the first to find out a little piece of the puzzle, I'll answer this :
    This is most probably something happening in the lymph. The MK-4 being distributed along. The pounding heart : I thought I had this but later I realized it was not my heart pumping, but my thymus! The lymphatic heart. The second heart of the mystics, that pounds when the white blood is moving to the brain.
    I am so happy for your gums!!!!:thumbsup:

    More later.

    Lots of good wishes!
    Asklipa

    :devil: FFP :devil:
    Little Bluestem and Hanna like this.
  9. Blossom1

    Blossom1

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    20
    I just started the bains derivatifs about a week ago and I do it nightly. It feels very good somewhat energizing and balancing. I started doing it because the healing from the b2/manganese/b12 combination stalled as if something was missing and my eyes became red and I stopped feeling good. I decided to take a break for a couple of days as you mentioned and that was when I started doing it. The first two or three days made the most notable difference in making me feel good; I think I am prone to liver congestion and it helps with the enormous amount of healing that needs to be done. I am only up to about 12 min/day.

    The mk-4 seems to be the missing piece since the red lines in my eyes are starting to fade. However, it seems to take a lot of nutrients from my body (I'm assuming since it is building bone and such) so I am having to start slowly and try to figure out what all I need. It is very energizing and I can tell it is very powerful already, but it seems to need all the nutrients in place for healing to occur.

    I don't eat fish eyes. It's a long story, but I just started eating fish two years ago and have never seen the eyes up close. I'm assuming they contain lots of nutrients and EFA/DHA? I do supplement with small amounts of cod liver oil that is high in A and D and good fatty acids, but I should probably up my dosage.

    By the way, I *think* there may be some kind of ratio of manganese to iron that needs to be obtained in the liver. After taking manganese for a while I started to get low iron symptoms (this contradicts what Christine said and supports Adreno's theory) even though my iron serum and ferritin levels stayed the same at my latest blood tests. Since my ferritin levels had initially risen very quickly but then stalled at a low level (rose from 3 to 14) I had to start adding in small amounts of supplemental floradix (liquid iron with herbs) with methylfolate to feel the benefits of manganese again. I do eat pastured red meat and cook with cast iron pans but for some reason that was not enough to keep my ferritin levels increasing (I suspect this has something to do with sufficient iron co-factors such as folate). My husband is still taking liquid manganese and has had no problems, but he had high-normal levels of ferritin to begin with. His allergy problems are drastically reduced with manganese and b2.
    Little Bluestem, Hanna and Asklipia like this.
  10. rachel

    rachel

    Messages:
    75
    Likes:
    7
    I did an hair elements test at DD a few years ago and there is no b2/riboflavin test.

    Does any quantity of folic acid significant? I have 40 mcg in 1 drop. What kind of symptoms are expected if someone cannot tolerate folic acid?
  11. Blossom1

    Blossom1

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    20
    Rachel, Brenda could answer your questions much better than I could. A good way to tell if you are not able to convert folic acid is to look at the thread in this detox section about signs for determining if you need potassium or folate (don't have time to search now). Some of the folate deficiency signs are a whitish/pale coloring of the tongue (sort of toward the back--it doesn't necessarily cover all of the tongue). It is hard to describe as it is not so much of a coating as it is a sort of hue over your normal tongue color. I see it in quite a few kids these days and it will disappear if you take several tablets of methylfolate (the preconverted form of folic acid). Some people get circles under their eyes, but that can be due to iron, vit K, folate and many other deficiencies. I think bowel movement problems are strongly related to folate deficiency. If you have any of the symptoms and taking methylfolate "cures" them then you know you are not able to convert it correctly. I think b2 helps with this and fish oil somehow helps too (maybe in reducing your requirement for folate?), but you may need to take methylfolate anyway.
    Asklipia likes this.
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes:
    514
    Seattle
    I'm guessing it has something to do with eating what will help them the most, like in traditional chinese medicine, if one has eyesight problems, like night blindness or poor vision, a TCM doctor may prescribe 'fish eyes'...

    Also, those parts may be high in the best forms of vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, etc., that we generally don't get enough of these days. We eat MUSCLE meats, but not other parts of the animals, like previous generations did 50+ years ago.

    ??? :)
    Asklipia likes this.
  13. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    835
    Likes:
    250
    I'll play :)

    Fattiest part - DHA? (Best fresh from a whole food source...not capsules.)

    And, maybe, Vit K mk 4 in fish organs?
    Asklipia likes this.
  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Thank you for playing anne_likes_red! :)
    - MK4 is in the brain, yes.

    The truth is all around for all to see. But because of wrong preconceptions, we are blind to it.
    - I'll give you a crumb : fish eyes are just like your eyes, not particularly fat.
    When the truth is in front of us, and someone diverts our attention, we do not see it.
    Here they say : "the skilled grizzly bears will start only eating the fattiest parts of the fish - the brains, eyes and skin".
    This is wrong. The eyes are not a fattier part.

    The truth (and the answer to a lot of our questions) is here: why do the bears eat all these things together?
    Be well!
    Asklipia

    :devil: FFP :devil:
  15. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Hi Dannybex!
    Thank you for playing!:)

    Yes to both.
    Here is another crumb.
    The bears at the same time eat the MK4 (brains) and the vitamin D (skin).

    There is still more to understand in that grizzly bear story.
    Be well and beware!
    :devil: FFP :devil:

    Asklipia
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  16. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Thank you Blossom1 for providing all these details. I do not have all the answers (yet!) and the reports of your experiences and questioning are a huge help. I hope that my posts too will help someone figure it out.
    Yes, energizing and balancing. You will find that as time goes, the effects are not so spectacular BUT something hidden is going on. I kept a journal as I started doing it and a good girlfriend of mine was doing it, to compare. This kept my motivation going even at the times when I felt well and thus did not see the need for going on. We did a first stretch of 90 days and we both had tremendous energy and became noticeably smarter. We stopped then and some of he effects disappeared after a week (not the smart part I hope!). So we started again.

    Take it easy in the beginning. MK4 has very many rebuilding effects on the body, regeneration effects I should say, so a lot of processes are going to start again. No need to hurry, just to go on steadily.
    I found out that we also had a coated tongue at the beginning (detoxification because your liver is waking up). To help for this, this is what we did :
    - when waking, gently scrape the tongue with a spoon, so as not to swallow that coating, since your body is trying to get rid of it. This tongue cleaning is standard practice in Asian countries before brushing the teeth.
    - you could try then oil pulling, this helps the liver : see this thread and my posts there #8 : http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-for-oral-and-sinus-issues.18433/#post-282410
    - a glass of water with the juice of half a lemon
    - a glass of water with ice and a dash of apple cider vinegar on the rocks (this is what the Roman soldier gave to Christ on the cross, minus the rocks and the vinegar was wine vinegar, but you get the gist of it).

    OK

    For the moment, neither I nor my husband seem to get low iron symptoms. We shall see....
    Lots of good wishes Blossom1!
    Be well and enjoy your MK4!
    Beware : :devil: FFP :devil:

    Asklipia
  17. rachel

    rachel

    Messages:
    75
    Likes:
    7
    Hi, I did the hair elements DDi test a few years ago and I don't see any B-2/rioflavin element (the test contain "toxic elements" and "essential and other elements"). Is this the same test? If it means something so other elements, as the manganese, were law.
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Hi Dannybex!
    Sorry you had a bad time with vit D!
    We started supplementing with MK-4 and D3 at the same time. This was what the Japanese recommend.
    Since we were supposed to take something fat with the MK-4, we took it at breakfast, together with two eggs fried in butter.
    This we discovered was a very good idea, because more and more points to the importance of taking these 3 fat soluble vitamins together. So as not to induce a deficiency in one of them.
    Eggs and butter being rich in Vit A may have been one of the reasons why our health improved on this supplementation.
    But I suspect there is more to it.

    Well, I see you want to get to the bottom of this...
    You said it yourself.
    Why is this? :devil: FFP :devil: ! That's why.
    How does it work?
    I would be glad to explain this in detail, but I have found out to my dismay that all the people who hear my theory, if they listen to it at all, speedily forget whatever I have tried to convey.
    Mushy Brains + Horror + Denial + Denial + Denial + Too Tiring to Try + etc...

    I have stopped trying to convince. My new strategy to help is to gently probe so that you will find out by yourself. The day it all clicks in is so beautiful that it would not be nice to deprive you of it!
    Lots of good wishes!
    Be well!
    Asklipia
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    448
    Just a small warning : starting MK-4 on very small doses is only possible if you divide a capsule or take drops. In both cases, this means playing with your bottle of supplements very often.
    Be careful that MK-4 is extremely sensitive to light and avoid exposing it as much as possible.

    Also it is better to start at a low dose x2 or x3 times a day rather than the same dose daily all at once. To avoid unpleasant reactions if you have them.

    MK-4 is mopped up in your blood very fast, none detected 5 hours after supplementation. This means that if you take small doses at different times, it is more likely to be used at different sites.
    Be well!
    :devil: FFP :devil:

    Asklipia
    merylg and Hanna like this.
  20. Blossom1

    Blossom1

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    20
    Thanks for the suggestions Asklipia. I just started oil pulling and will try the tongue scraping idea. Apple cider vinegar was hurting my teeth after a while so I decided to give it a break.

    I could certainly use some "smarter" for my job so I will continue with the bains derivatifs!

    WAPF also very strongly pushes A,D and K in the form of butter oil mixed with fermented cod liver oil as a supplement to be taken daily. I took it daily for almost a year two years ago, but I think there was not enough K or perhaps I didn't have enough supporting nutrients to really benefit from it. The only improvement I saw was a slight bettering of my vision. It certainly didn't knock me off my feet like the Mk-4 supplement does.

    So now that we need to eat offal/skin/vit A, D, K, you will have to give us another clue. It all sounds very interesting and very similar to what Chris Masterjohn and Stephen Guynet (they have excellent blogs) and WAPF suggest for optimal health. However, they don't link anything to folic acid so I am interested in what your thoughts are.
    Hanna, Little Bluestem and merylg like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page