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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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B2 I love you!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    It's more likely the Vitamin K doing it's job.
     
  2. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Could be, but we have been taking MK-4 since January 2010. Around 2 and a half years.
    It took that much time to work on the stretch marks. Or maybe it is the total of what we take.
    Good luck,
    Asklipia
     
  3. Blossom1

    Blossom1

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    Asklipia, thanks so much for keeping us updated on how you are doing. I'm wondering if the b2 is activating the MK-4, zinc and selenium you were already taking to give you such great results. I am doing much, much better with b2 and manganese, but I am thinking of adding in some zinc and selenium to see how it goes.
     
  4. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I think the manganese is activating the MK-4. They both work on cartilage. The doses of zinc and selenium I take are quite small, not over what you would get in food I believe. I only take them because they come with the melatonin preparation I am using.
    Best wishes,
    Asklipia
     
  5. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Jerusalem, Israel
    Wonderful Asklipia!
     
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    11 weeks into B2/Manganese
    Update from post #478 in bold the new observations

    Still taking 37.5 to 50 mg B2 and 20 mg Manganese chelated every day. (no change)
    No other supplements except :
    - daily: 15 mg Menatetrenone (MK-4) with breakfast; Melatonin 3 mg + Zinc 8.7 mg + Selenium 50 mcg (these last three in the same preparation at night).
    - on Sundays : 3 mg adb12
    - on Tuesdays and Fridays 1 mg mb12 (no change)

    What I notice compared to 2 weeks ago when I was 9 weeks into this protocol:

    - good energy; same
    - sleep = good sleep with no tension. No dreams at all.
    This is changed : good sleep with no tension. Dreams. Waking up a bit earlier than before.
    - no bouts of sadness/depression/feeling overwhelmed; same
    - less affected by other people's depression!!!!!! Much less empathy!!! same
    - No more queasy feelings in stomach. Same

    - since the beginning of supplementation, very easy and slippery bowel movements. Transit was never a problem in the last year but now it seems there is a lot of lymph (or something oily) coating the matters. Colour normal, not very dark though; same
    - pee is back to absolutely normal colour; same
    - no more stuff coming out of my scalp and ears; same
    - Lots of new hair growing I think; I see them around the hairline babies 1 cm long; not sure; I don't see new hairs.
    I see lots of new hairs. Also hair/nails growing noticeably faster.
    - hearing more or less back to normal, with sometimes lower accuracy for a couple of hours; same
    - tiny improvement in blurry vision (so tiny I am not really sure this will last); no improvement
    - one shoulder hurting sometimes, much less; even less pain there than before
    - short term memory loss by bursts, much less; no forgetfulness at present
    - irritation of the eyes in the morning on waking up only; a lot a few days back, more on this later
    - pasty mouth (not too bad) on waking; not dry anymore, a bit pasty - same
    - sometimes a lot of mucous coming out of my sinuses - this stops after a couple of hours; see later
    - hair getting greasy after a couple of days; same
    - even more easily satisfied by what I eat (appetite is still good) more appetite
    - sunbathing but no tan!!! see my post #463 - same
    - no more stretch marks see my post #480

    A few days ago I had a setback, waking up with a slight headache, irritated eyes, getting more and more irritated all day long until they were very puffy with dark circles around + vague pains in hands and a general feeling of irritation and feeling bloated. Very depressed - but this lasted only 5 minutes. Vague pain in my left toe, not very bad (resolved after 2 days).
    Since I have been on the same dosage for a fairly long time I looked at the rest of what I did to find out what may have caused this.
    My first idea (and I think I might have been right) is that I have been unable to go for my 1 km swim every two days. Not that I did not feel up to it, but the scooter has been lent to someone else so I am stuck in the house. This means that I cannot cool my body in the same way. Also that I was not taking any Vitamin D by sunbathing.
    So for two days I have :
    - stopped all supplements;
    - done 3 times a day 20 mns each of Bains Dérivatifs (explained in my thread here = http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/bains-dérivatifs.15574/). This immediately cools the brain and the CNS, induced a lot of mucus to flow from my nose and throat. Was very careful not to swallow this, as I supposed it might be loaded of what I am trying to throw out maybe. Lots of tears flowing from my red eyes all day long, a relief I think;
    - 3 times a day washed my eyes in saline solution using an eye-bath;
    - 3 times a day did 10 minutes of oil-pulling, which brought out more mucus and relief.
    After 2 days of this, this morning I feel very well with no symptoms left.
    Tomorrow the scooter is back and I go swimming again and will start on the supplements same dosage.

    This has taught me something : The lymph has to go on moving and the CNS has to be COOLED. Otherwise whatever I am achieving with this supplementation (B2/manganese) could not be done because the process would be unbearable. If this is a detox of some kind, you cannot detox if you feel overburdened. If it is an imbalance of some kind, it is not good to push things until you reach there (husband did not suffer from this set back and has been following happily the supplementation without break -but he has been working outside in the garden in the sun 3 hours a day moving rocks and taking cold showers).
    Now I know the detox is not possible if I do not circulate the lymph AND cool down the CNS regularly. The role of Vitamin D is possibly important too.
    I leave the MK-4 out of this because it never induced such red eyes etc.

    Best wishes and good luck to all.
    Asklipia
     
    Wayne likes this.
  7. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Asklipia, this is so glad to hear. Thank you for keeping us updated. I wish continued progress.
     
  8. Boost

    Boost *****

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    stretch marks are scars, I have a hard time believing they are gone...
     
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Me too!
    I am so happy about this! This is not a symptom that I fear may come back though!:)
    It is hugely satisfying to have finally FIXED something !!!
    Quite a boost in itself.
     
  10. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Asklipia,

    The fact B2, Vitamin K & Manganese seem to be helping you so much is highly indicative that the reason may be that you are supporting a case of SNS dominance. Incidently those same supplements are all SNS support supplements, I wonder how you would do on the other ones....

    If you haven't already, check out: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/metabolic-diet-supplements-an-exploration.18312/

    Based on your personality/writing style & symptoms I am willing to bet, you are fairly strong SNS dominance. What do you think?

    Seems most of the people on this thread that had marketed benefit from B2 are Metabolic SNS dominant......
     
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Gestalt,
    This is I think an important question.
    I used to believe that I had SNS dominance. Even more than that, I used to think I had gone overboard with SNS dominance and that this was the cause of all my problems.
    However, my husband is typically PNS dominant and had the same problems I had in another form.

    Following the definition you cite :
    Stereotypical characteristics of SNS dominance are: A high Judging score as per Myers-Briggs, anxiety, insomnia, heart racing, heart issues, adrenal fatigue, goose bumps more frequent, gastro-intestinal issues, issues digesting dense fatty meat, agitated, jittery wired, restless, tend to be pale, impatient, aggressive, ambitious, motivated, confrontational

    Stereotypical characteristics of PNS dominance are: A high Perceiving score on Myers-Briggs, disorganization, depression, apathy, lethargy, spaciness, poor concentration, low libido, allergies/sensitivities, dry skin, weight gain, dry irritated eyes, low blood pressure, asthma, dizziness, tired but wired, creative, more laid back, relaxed, love food, more sociable

    As far as I am concerned, in the SNS dominance model, I never had (myers-briggs I don't know), heart racing, heart issues, goose pimps, gastro-intestinal issues, issues digesting dense fat meat, tend to be pale, confrontational.
    And I did have a lot of the symptoms of the PNS model : depression, spaciness, low libido, weight gain, dry irritated eyes, relaxed, love food.

    This is not to say I do not believe in the distinction between the two models, more that I think there is something happenning to the THIRD route.

    In fact, as I progressed in my recovery, I noticed that I started to breathe more through the right nostril, a typical sign of the SNS taking control.
    In fact when sicker I was also always breathing through the left nostril. Meaning that I was in a state of PNS dominance. The opposite of what I thought initially and what you think too.
    B2 and manganese are it seems helping the PNS at the moment. Are they in general helping the PNS or are they bringing the whole into balance? For the moment I cannot say. But I can say that they are NOT particularly increasing PNS signs or decreasing SNS signs. Something else I think is happening.
    Lots of good wishes,
    Be well! :)
    Asklipia

    Maybe my writing style indicates SNS. However, English is not my language and this may be deceptive. In general I write even better than I swim, in any language. There is absolutely no effort for me in that activity. I have regained back most of my ability to concentrate, which was fairly high before the fall.
     
  12. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Here is an interesting study :
    Vitamins D and K as pleiotropic nutrients: clinical importance to the skeletal and cardiovascular systems and preliminary evidence for synergy.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21155624

    "Vitamin K compounds undergo oxidation-reduction cycling within the endoplasmic reticulum membrane, donating electrons to activate specific proteins via enzymatic gamma-carboxylation of glutamate groups before being enzymatically re-reduced. "

    So we are back to the endoplasmic reticulum...
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Slight change in supplementation :
    I was taking 20 mg manganese chelated per day.
    Now taking 10 mg manganese chelated + 1 teaspoon WaterOz manganese ionic.
    I feel the difference!!!!! The WaterOz is definitely much stronger/more efficient.
    I could see better for an hour after taking it.

    So far so good.
    Good luck to all,
    Asklipia
     
    Astrid likes this.
  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    13 weeks into B2/Manganese
    Update from post #486 in bold the new observations

    Still taking 37.5 to 50 mg B2 and 20 mg Manganese chelated every day. (change : B2 same but 10 mg Manganese chelated + 1 teaspoon WaterOz ionic Manganese) see that new thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/manganese-chelated-v-ionic.18514/
    No other supplements except :
    - daily: 15 mg Menatetrenone (MK-4) with breakfast; Melatonin 3 mg + Zinc 8.7 mg + Selenium 50 mcg (these last three in the same preparation at night).
    - on Sundays : 3 mg adb12
    - on Tuesdays and Fridays 1 mg mb12 (change : I was using Jarrow 1 mg, now on Enzymatic Therapy 1 mg three times a week instead of two) (see that thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/)

    What I notice compared to 2 weeks ago when I was 11 weeks into this protocol:

    - good energy; just a little bit more energy
    - sleep = good sleep with no tension. Dreams. Waking up a bit earlier than before. same
    - no bouts of sadness/depression/feeling overwhelmed; same
    - less affected by other people's depression!!!!!! Much less empathy!!! same
    - No more queasy feelings in stomach. Same


    - since the beginning of supplementation, very easy and slippery bowel movements. Transit was never a problem in the last year but now it seems there is a lot of lymph (or something oily) coating the matters. Colour normal, not very dark though; same
    - pee is back to absolutely normal colour; same
    - no more stuff coming out of my scalp and ears; same
    -I see lots of new hairs. Also hair/nails growing noticeably faster. same

    - hearing more or less back to normal, with sometimes lower accuracy for a couple of hours; same
    - no improvement in blurry vision. same
    - one shoulder hurting sometimes, much less; even less pain there than before
    - no forgetfulness at present same
    - irritation of the eyes in the morning on waking up only; gone
    - husband sees his floaters kind of "unravel" at the ends

    - husband just found out that two small hardened lymph balls under finger pads, having been there for years and resistant to massage have disappeared
    - pasty mouth (not too bad) on waking; not dry anymore, a bit pasty - same
    - sometimes a lot of mucous coming out of my sinuses - this stops after a couple of hours; gone
    - hair getting greasy after a couple of days; same
    - less appetite
    - sunbathing but no tan!!! see my post #463 - same
    - no more stretch marks see my post #480 - same

    Best wishes and good luck to all.
    Asklipia
     
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Zinc gets rid of stretch marks, improves eyesight, improves digestion, and improves skin. A lot of your benefits are strictly from the zinc in other words.

    I am curious about the B2 and manganese. I know dog person advocated it for many...I just wonder about the amount...how did you arrive at that dose? And that is quite a lot of manganese. Why? A study on bone density found bone density increases is postmenopausal women with these supplementation levels: calcium 1000mg; zinc 15mg; copper 5mg; manganese 2.5 mg. So...manganese is a mineral and it seems like you are taking a very high dose...is that just for a short whil eto get your levels up or forever? (I would not take it forever unless I had researched it). Did Dog Person indicate how you could have become manganese deficient? Aside from hair analysis results, did she say there were any symptoms that could lead you to suspect B2 deficiency? For instance I believe I heard those who are B2 deficient are more prone to anger? Interesting.
     
  16. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Hi triffid113,
    need B2 to make flavin enzymes to make ATP for energy....so without adequate B2 stores everything stops
     
  17. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Asklipia,

    I'm curious why you decided or chose to begin taking vitamin K2 in the first place. Was there some specific symptom or symptoms you were trying to address?

    Thanks in advance! :)
     
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I just added this to my bi-weekly report :
    - husband just found out that two small hardened lymph balls under finger pads, having been there for years and resistant to massage have disappeared
     
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Dannybex,
    You want to know it all!!!
    This is how it happened :
    By 2001 we had identified ingestion of MSG and glutamates as being at least a switch to our sickness episodes (now convinced it is more than that). It took 4 more years until we could avoid glutamates entirely (man-made glutamates that is). Very long story.
    Once we were successful, we got huge improvements and then could not improve further.
    Then we lived in Japan-Korea-Hong Kong and wondered : how do all these Japanese eat so much MSG and are still alright? The place was like a special MSG hell. The answer is : they are not. Next question : What do they do about it? Answer : they take all kinds of supplements on the sly. In Tokyo executives start their day with a bottle of an amino-acid drink, chockfull with B12 and taurine (a known MSG antagonist).
    At a massage spa a lady told me about menatetrenone. Generics selling in spas in 2000 pill bottles. One wonders why if it is a prescription drug for old ladies with brittle bones!?!
    I did some research as you can imagine. A lot of research, including using Google translate to find out about Japanese and Korean research. A lot of thought has come from that.

    Since one of the virtues of menatetrenone is the mopping up of extra glutamates, I thought it was worth a try.

    So we started on menatetrenone 15 mg a day. A small dose to fight let's say osteoporosis. Which I was starting to suffer from on top of the rest. My husband did not but he had what they had diagnosed as a deficiency in growth, meaning some of his bones never grew totally (happily it doesn't show from the outside). For osteoporosis in Japan, the dose is 45 mg in three doses a day for a lady weighing 45 kgs. So we reckoned 15 mg was peanuts for us.
    No way could we take the 45 mg. Immediately I felt a general improvement on all kinds of symptoms, but at the same time we could feel our livers were having a hard time. Not too bad, but I thought we should wait before taking more. From time to time we tried taking a second dose, and it took 6 months before we could ramp up to 30 mg then 45 mg per day.

    Strange things started to happen :
    I grew up 2 cms then a third and last cm at 58 years of age. This has now stopped. Might mean that I too had a deficiency in growth. My jaw which had osteoporosis, especially around one of the articulations (if I yawned it would pop out), filled up and I did not need to have extra bone added to it as the dentist had planned. I stopped having teeth problems and periodontal problems. My face became wider, it seems the bones under my eyes filled up and became more round as in a youthful look.

    My husband did not grow in height but in width. He suffered a little every night for months from growing pains behind his heart as his ribs grew to make a wider thoracic cage. At that place on his back he had a strange red spot which at the moment is still there but a different colour. A calcified place at the top of his lungs (which doctors had said was caused by TB) has now turned normal and he can use his lungs fully. We had to give away all of his suits and shirts. The cuffs did not reach the wrists by 10 cms. He has not put on any weight though.

    All this is only for bones.
    I am not ready to explain all of my theory. Not that I want to keep it a secret or that I want to make money from it. It is just that writing this down takes a lot of energy. Also diving into the murky waters of deceit to retrieve these pearls of discovery is very intense. The more I find out, the more I find out and it all falls into place. It is huge and terrible. I am so small.

    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
    Matthew 10:8

    For the moment let's call it Fake Folate Poisoning.

    I hope this answers your question.
    Lots of good wishes,
    Asklipia
     
    peem and fozzaw like this.
  20. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    We had been taking zinc before without those benefits.

    I am not working with DogPerson. If you read this thread you will find many of the answers to your questions.
    Good luck!
    Asklipia
     

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