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B12 working but can't sleep.....

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joe davison, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    "What type of potassium are you taking? Someone with low stomach acid said that potassium gluconate didn't work for them, but potassium chloride did. Despite what some people think, I don't believe all methylation problems are related to low potassium, but it would be a good idea to rule it out."

    I take Lo Salt as recommended by Dr Myhill. I use a small scoopful in each of the 3 glasses of water I have with meals to get my supplements down. If its hot weather I add it to all my drinks of water I have to take 1/4 Fludrocortisone at least 3 times a week or if its hot and I get sweaty. From memory I think its potassium chloride.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Yeah, it is potassium chloride. It sounds like you're getting plenty of potassium then. It looks like your medication also causes low potassium so that's something to be aware of. If I remember correctly, dbkita has also taken Florinef/Fludrocortisone so he might be able to offer some tips as far as potassium dosage when taking that medication along with methylation.
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Norepinephrine to my knowledge is mostly pro inflammatory in all the ways that matter and excites the sympathetic nervous system. Were you maybe think of epinephrine for certain anti-inflammatory purposes?
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I know you keep saying that NE is inflammatory. Perhaps excessive NE is, but in general it has anti-inflammatory effects, as well as pro-inflammatory.

    https://etd.library.emory.edu/view/record/pid/emory:bcj49

    And:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20231476
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    By definition I am talking excess norepinephrine. Wouldn't be having this conversation if we were talking the normal levels with no immune dysregulation. Ne stimulates microglial activation in some parts of the brain and not others. Studying depression is a whole oyher side of the spectrum. Read up if you want on sns stimulation. Definitivemind.com is a good source of info if you want to research more. And sorry many other papers I have read suggest it is not generally anti inflammatory. Il-6 is only one marker. Again abnormally low levels of ne whether in ne or induced with inhibitors is not imo a good yardstick for what to extrapolate when ne is high.

    Edit: The first link you posted btw is a doctoral thesis. I scanned through bits of it. Still trying to make heads of it since it is 204 pages long.

    Here are some links of use maybe:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004414 (excellent paper)
    http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/291/5/G877.full.pdf
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3301813/
    http://stevebmd.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/cytokines-sing-the-blues2006.pdf (summarizes how different the impact is for the catecholamines on inflammatory response differentiating stress induced from innate inflammation as in infection and autoimmune disorder)

    I think norepinephrine raises NF-kappa, raises TNF-alpha depending on tissue type (?), lowers IL beta (recent research suggests IL beta is both pro and anti inflammatory but one of the MAIN regulators of Th1 immune response, so I am not sure how to interpret your second link with regards to microglia). Looks like NE lowers IL-6 and IL-7. NF kappa is a big one though for the macrophages and things like autoimmune diseases.

    Both of my endocrinologists (yes I have two collaborating) and my autoimmune specialist I see target NE for people with autoimmune disorders.

    I'd love to be able to tell you what the autoimmune clinic at Stanford says but they have a minimum 2 year waiting list unless you have HIV.
    SanDiego#1 and Lotus97 like this.
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I've backed off the b-complex for now Lotus...but will restart after I restart benfotiamine, which I foolishly stopped about six weeks or so ago. Tingling in my feet (and worse pain) has been coming back...not good.
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    dbkita,

    Yeah, NF-kB is a bad mother. But perhaps whether NE is inflammatory or not is individual, based on other factors (like simultaneously low cortisol, the presence of a virus or autoantibodies, etc)?
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I am sure epigenetic factors are big factor. But I like I said I think the people of interest on these forums with high inflammation (high rt3, high 1,25 calcitriol, high c3a or high c4a, etc) due to myriad sources (Lyme's, autoimmune, viral, gut dybioses, etc. are the ones who need to beware excess NE produced in the ANS.

    This sort of differentiation between stress induced and pre-existing inflammatory disorder as discussed in the last paper I linked above may correlate with why some people who over methylate have lots of positive results greatly outweighing the negatives, while those of us who overmethylate with a pre-existing inflammation pattern, produce more catecholamines and amplify the underlying inflammation imbalance.

    For me Dr Mariano equates NE upregulation --> inflammation increase --> pain. But I have an autoimmune disorder. So go figure.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha could that have something to do with COMT and lowering norepinephrine or is that just a coincidence? It's so easy to make false connections. Especially if you are trying to make something fit into preconceived theory. This stuff is still pretty new to me. A few months adreno told me I was "getting a crash course in neuroscience, biochem and endocrinology":D
  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I am sorry can you rephrase the question. I honestly did not understand your first sentence. Sorry.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was talking about inflammation. Niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha and it also speeds up COMT which would lower norepinephrine which could possibly cause inflammation.
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood.

    Any impact niacinamide has on COMT is trumped by it being a cofactor for catecholamine and serotonin production. Also niacinamide higher doses will tend to put some pressure on lowering SAMe depending on dosage (though niacin more strongly so). So any effect of "speeding" up COMT is going to be more than compensated by the enhanced neurotransmitter production imo. However, the SAMe effect is certainly powerful enough to reduce methylation if the dose is high enough.

    As far as being effective as a NF-kappa and TNF-alpha suppressor while there is a lot of research to support this, from a practical perspective you would likely need pretty good doses to get noticeable benefit (i.e. not the doses found in your typical multivitamin or b100). Some people pushes levels of 1-2 grams of niacinamide to get anti-inflammatory support but at some point you have to worry about liver problems if memory serves.

    I may be wrong but pound for pound I don't think niacinamide is as strong an anti-inflammatory as say quercetin or curcumin. Then again personally I can't touch quercetin since it is a COMT inhibitor and I end up with insomnia after a couple of days and curcumin rips my gut apart.
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yeah, I wouldn't put my money on niacinamide as an anti inflammatory. Curcumin is likely the most potent natural NF-kB inhibitor you can get your hands on. It's much more potent than ibuprofen for example.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15489888/
  14. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    I have seen many CFIDS/ Physicians. I started having sleep issues where I would wake up at night startled and choking.
    I saw a SLEEP SPECIALIST. I definitely have sleep Apnea and quite breathing during the night. They are going to do an in house sleep study as now I have an irregular heartbeat-maybe from this.
    I take Hydroxy-B-12 injections 1 cc daily 10 mg. You have to take it early in the day AM. I then take Magnsium Sulfate 1 unit sub q inj. works well for me. Melatonin sets my heart racing off.Sleep specialist said he gives his patients up 5- 9 mg if they have problems. But takes it 3 hours before bed time.. Melatonin plus 5 htp work wonderful for me for many years. I am older now and have developed Sleep Apnea. Sub lingual and Methal never worked for me.

    San Diego #1
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That's interesting because I have been taking 700+ mg of B3 (mostly niacinamide), but also 1500 mg of quercetin. I really need to cut back on how many supplements I'm taking. There's all sort of repercussions it seems.
    SanDiego#1 likes this.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Sometimes people with that reaction to melatonin are taking too high a dose. Some people take less than 1 mg and find that more effective. But you say works well for you and yet it makes your heart race (?)
  17. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    Lotus- I left part of my post off. Melatonin worked well for me with 1 5htp with it for years. When I started getting older , it seemed to make my heart race and I could not sleep. Saw a Sleep Specialist and I have Sleep Apnea which was causing some of the heat racing. Started Mag sulfate inj at night sub q small amount. Cut out the Melatonin. Take B-12
    inj Methal did not work. I do 1cc Hydroxy with 1/2 unit Folate inj in Am with many other vitamins. Going to have in house Sleep study done in a few weeks. Physician said it is better to rely on 2-3 different sleep meds at night. One to go to sleep, one if you wake up. That way you don't take a chance on becoming addicted. I take the smallest dose possible. I use Mag again if I wake up. Once I get the sleep study finished I think we will have more answers. I actually quit breathing 3-4 times during the short one.. A very small meal at night- bland if possible helps also. I would back down on all the vitamins and then start adding one at a time, that way you can see what works. Injections and cremes works best for me. They are easily absorbed. I would still see a Sleep Specialist. I will be wearing one of those mask-but I don't care if it helps my breathing and sleep.

    San Diego #1

    Hope this helps
  18. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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  19. SanDiego#1

    SanDiego#1 SanDiego#1

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    My God -you have two Dr. that agree? Our condition is so complicated , don't see why they can treat MS, and Lupus,
    but not us! My problem is I find most of the specialist will not stay with a treatment or med long enough to see if it is working. Unless you are having serious side effects-try to let a patient stay on a treatment of course titrating dosages and etc, but don't keep changing the Protocal for the latest thing in Vogue. I have had two do that to me.
    The Neutraceuticals I am getting from my Dr. are expensive.

    San Diego #1
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    When you say methylcobalamin injections didn't work do you mean it had no effect or had a bad effect? I've heard anecdotally that the quality of methyl injections is sometimes degraded (possibly due to light exposure?) and I'm just curious how prevalent this is. I've also heard people have good results with methylcobalamin injections.

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