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B12 working but can't sleep.....

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joe davison, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    A. methyl donors

    B. No. Trans-sulfuration can produce sulfates but is NOT the only way to make sulfates. If you are CBS positive I am not saying it is impossible but it seem unlikely you will be low in sulfates unless you have genetic defects elsewhere that block making sulfates. So I would advise testing. Maybe you are low. But then your CBS gene is somehow not being expressed much and that would be wonderful to have for a homozygote.


    Edit: You are homozygote A360A! Never mind that is probably why. The other one is far more deleterious (the C667T). Dr Yasko pulls too many satellite SNPs in for my taste. A360A has been largely debunked as a problem at least on its own. Congratulations. Testing for urine sulfates may help you identify if you are low though. The best way for what you suspect is a 24 hour urine sulfate test through LabCorp or the equivalent.
     
    dannybex likes this.
  2. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks so much Dbkita -- now I'll just have to read this about a dozen times for it to sink in. :)

    p.s. And thanks for the 'good news' re the CBS issue. I'll have to ask her, but perhaps that's the same version of CBS that Anne_Likes_Red has, as she found that (contrary to Yasko's advice) she improved substantially after she increased protein and sulfur, rather than limiting it.
     
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yeah that might be something for you to explore. I would get the strips and see where you come out. Then maybe also get a 24 hour urine sulfate reading from your doctor if possible. Sulfates is probably THE biomarker for CBS activity, even more so than ammonia. I am having to do the reverse and lower my protein some to reduce methionine and cysteine. I may end up borrowing a page from Ray Peat and adding gelatin into the mix since it is very low in sulfur containing amino acids. But you may very well be on the opposite side of the table.
     
  4. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hey Dan

    We have some similarities on our defects particularly the CBS/BHMT and I tested for low sulphate with Metametrix 744 ug/mg (690-2,988) (and also high Vanilmandelate, Homovandelate, 8-Hydroxyphenyllactate v.high,Adipate, Suberate, Pyruvate, L-Lactate, Citrate v. high off the charts, Cis-Aconitate, Isocitrate, a-Keto, Malate, Hydroxmethlyglutarate,, a-Hydroxybutyrate, if anyone can comment I would be most grateful)

    This was however a few years ago. I have ordered sulphate strips despite the ridiculous delivery charge from a UK lab and still waiting after a week for them to come in. Not sure if I can manage to get a 24 hour unrine test from my doc thanks NHS.

    I also have the salicylate problem showing in a private test - mild blocking of CL-synthase by a salicylate with poor ion-gating - D gate function. so must reduce salicylate in diet. Also comments by dbkita appreciated.

    I have been building up with methyl`s (Mcb12 L-mFolate and other b`s in a multi no folic acid at all) at small amounts but think my histamine levels or histamine sensitivity has increased (don`t know which I have but I sneeze a lot) leading to spots all over my chest and the increase of intertestatial cystitis so am stopping until I get the sulphur strips.

    I am stumped now with diet as it is already very restricted.
     
  5. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    I have tested my urine sulfate level many times during the day, and it is always consistantly above 1200.
    And I have collected my urine for 24hrs and then tested with the test strips. It was still above 1200. My point is
    why pay LABCORP to test your urine?????
     
  6. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    In the beginning, when I was at low doses of methylfolate and mB12, and tried to build up my aB12 AN for a quarter every other day to every day, I stopped taking all three because of a strange, strong pressure in my sinuses. Very unpleasant. I remember adreno had a similar reaction, he made the connection to rising histamine levels. He got over it, somehow. So did I: after two days or so of taking nothing, I slowly introduced the mB12 again, the mfolate and the aB12. That time it did not gave me any problems in the sinuses. So maybe, after stopping for a while, you too could succeed a second time, maybe your body simply needs more time to adjust? HTH.
     
  7. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Thanks Xara

    This is my second attempt. I did better this time though. I am looking at cutting oxalates and salicylates.
     
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Because the time profile of urine sulfates is not constant over 24 hours for most of us.
     
  9. TPOBPAH

    TPOBPAH

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    Brandon, MB Canada
    Update

    Since my last post I've been experimenting with doses of mb12 and metafolin. In around Feb of this year I was taking 1000mcg of mb12 and around 400mcg of metafolin. I did start experiencing deeper sleep but later in the night and only for around 2 hours. I also felt terrible during the day (sluggish, nauseous, fatigue). I then stopped taking both for a couple of months but all of my symptoms of low b12 returned. I started everything all over again but with lower amounts of metafolin. I'm sleeping much, much better but during the day I feel down and not myself. Kind of like a light depression with no sex drive and fatigue. Otherwise I haven't slept this well and deep for many years so it seems I'm heading in the right direction. I am being tested for celiac and am also planning on having tests done for the mthfr gene mutation. Any other suggestions?
     
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Not everyone needs the high doses recommended by some here. It sounds like you are figuring out what works best for you. Sometimes the symptoms are from too high a dose, but other times the symptoms can be from methylation itself in which case you might not need to lower the dose. I've found that getting enough sleep consistently was more hopeful than any of the supplements I've taken, but it wasn't enough for my depression. Hopefully yours will pass as you continue your recovery.
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As you said, niacin (B3) is considered a methyl sponge. The way it works is mainly by using up SAMe. You might need a higher dose of TMG and/or SAMe now that you're supplementing with B3. I found this the other day from Dr. Ben
     
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    How does TMG cause/increase inflammation?
     
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Stimualation of bhmt disproportionally raises ne relative to da.
    No one knows exactly why but the metabolites for ne catabolism shoot up relative to those for da. The hypothesis is da is over converted to ne. This would explain the cautions about taking tmg at night or some people's testimonials about insomnia and excitability if they take larger doses.
    Now why inflammation? The answer is again ne. Excessive ne signaling ramps the immune system to be proinflammatory in a big way.
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I wasn't sure if the inflammation was from the norepinephrine or increasing methylation because the information about NE is confusing. It seems it's both proinflammatory and antiinflammatory.
    Couldn't that also be from increasing methylation?
     
  15. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    You might find by add L5MTHF and P5P that you could reduce the methylB12 (they all work together). They will give you more energy in all - but maybe then you can lower the methyl B12 enough to sleep and still have the lift you need during the day.
     
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if you've read all the way through this thread, but Joe Davison said he's only taking 1000 mcg methylcobalamin now and he's taking 400 mcg 5MTHF so that's more than enough methylfolate. And he has B12 deficiency symptoms so lowering the methylcobalamin might not be a good idea. Some P5P might be good, but too much will increase methylation more than some people want to.
     
  17. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Would those of you who understand what can go wrong when we increase methylation please have a look at my last post on the thread "Quick question regarding MB12 and Folapro". I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do next and really want to get some proper sleep again!

    Thanks Pam
     
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Some people need a lower dose than others. I don't know what else to say. Freddd and Rich have differing opinions about the proper dosages. I generally recommend lowering your dose if you run into problems. Especially if potassium doesn't alleviate your symptoms. If you're following Freddd's protocol then you might want to ask him or someone else following his protocol about dosages because I would probably give you a different answer.

    And I'll also repeat what I said earlier in your "Quick question regarding MB12 and Folapro" thread: Many times people get extra "energy" when starting a methylation protocol and most likely increase their level of activities. That's fine if your body can handle extra activities, but if not your body will let you know that you're doing to much. I have a lot adrenal problems that get worse from too much activities and methylation itself seems to increase my adrenal symptoms as well. Getting enough sleep also makes a big difference with my adrenal symptoms. And limiting activities and sources of stress during the day also help a lot. Eating healthy meals at regular intervals are important too.

    As far as what could go wrong during methylation, there's a lot of things. I found some quotes from Rich on the different processes occurring during methylation:
     
    Jarod likes this.
  19. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Thanks for the explanations, one thing comes to mind for me, I was taking around 1000 mcg betaine hcl in 3 divided doses yesterday because I have so little stomach acid and I remember in the past I did used to take TMG but got very bad hyperstimulation from TMG and had to stop it. I bet that is what has caused my problems, today without realising it I took about 300 mg less so that might be why I didn't feel that way plus I took 400 mcg less of methylfolate.

    I really appreciate all the help we get here.

    Pam
     
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    With TMG or Betaine HCL it could cause the hyperstimulation either by increasing your norepinephrine as dbkita said or by increasing methylation or some combination of the two. If you're already taking a relatively high dose of methylfolate, methylcobalamin, and P5P then any additional methyl donor will magnify the effects.

    I'm actually might be having a similar dilemma with TMG and Betaine hcl. My digestive enzyme has betaine hcl and I also have a b complex with a little bit of TMG. I'm not sure if they're causing problems or not since I'm taking a relatively low dose. I haven't really decided what to do yet.

    What type of potassium are you taking? Someone with low stomach acid said that potassium gluconate didn't work for them, but potassium chloride did. Despite what some people think, I don't believe all methylation problems are related to low potassium, but it would be a good idea to rule it out.
     

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