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B12 without SUGAR

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dmac, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. dmac

    dmac

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    I have such problems with sugar (mannitol, xylotol, flavorings, etc) in all the b12 sublinguals and folates.

    I am attempting Freddd's protocol and realize in order to do this, the brands will be different. I am just hoping there are adequate.

    I have found a Methy B12 from Pure encapsulation. I realize it is a capsule, very pure.

    *I was wondering if I could open the capsule and put the contents under my tongue?

    Throne puts out a very pure 5 mthfr folate (like solgar metafolin minus the mannitol)
    I can provide a online supplement store i use, very reasonable and brands that are typically only used by NP care providers ex. Design for Health

    I have contacted a compounding pharm in Lakewood Colorado, spoke to a pharmacist Tina and they make drops for sublingual use with no fillers, no sugars, just the B12 and water

    They have a Methyl B12 as well as a Hydro B12. She did not have a price for the Methyl but thought it might be less than the hydro,
    which is about $60 for 5ml, 450 drops, which would last a pretty long time.

    She is also looking to her sources and getting back to me for compounded drops for Dibencozide, fingers crossed.
    I will keep you posted if anyone is interested

    The pharmacy is Belmar
    800 525 9473
    303 763 5533
    a script is needed.

    One other question...

    I just read that Freddd says, for the protocol to be as effective as possible, you must use the 2 active B12,
    but in reading his protocol 3 critical B's are listed
    Jarrow MB12
    B12 Infustion
    Dibencozide

    *Why are there 2 methy B12? They seem to be the same type of Methy B12.

    I am hoping to use the compound drops of Methyl B12, Dibencozide and the Throne Methy folate
    and supplements and critical co factors (although the ribose has sugar and maybe the carnitine, not sure, will have to check.

    Thanks for the help
    Denise
     
  2. dmac

    dmac

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  3. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi Denise,

    I think it is because Jarrow Methyl B12 and Enzymatic Therapy's B12 Infusion were rated 5 star by Freddd some time back. Jarrow is said to have changed and it is not recommended anymore(for more, read here: jarrow-did it change???).

    ET's B12 Infusion seems to be the new standard. It's sad to hear that you are having problems with sugar and other additives in the sublinguals. I hope you find one that is effective.
    I started a poll a while back for members to rate various brands of Methyl B12 sublinguals. I'll share it here, hoping it can help you.

    Poll: Which Methyl B12 sublingual brands have you tried and found effective?

    You can look into the contents of the sublinguals on iherb.com or any other website.

    Good luck.
     
  4. dmac

    dmac

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    Thank you are,

    I have looked everywhere that is why I was hoping to por the contents out and put under tongue AND found a compound pharm to make drops (methyl, hydro and dibencozide) sublingual but no sugar.

    Was thinking there would be so many others with a sugar/yeast problem (I think mine is so related to mercury-I am also chelating Cutler Protocol).

    Maybe as I get the yeast more under control I will tolerate.

    I say on Freddd's revised protocol he had 3 critical supplements the 2 methy B12 and the dibencozide.
    This was before removing the jarrow.

    just a bit confused

    thanks for you help.

    It has been lonely here without Freddd and the thought of Dr Rich gone has left a hole in my heart. I can not stop thinking about him. Really miss him. He helped to sort a few things out. A kind, gracious soul

    Denise
     
  5. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi Denise,

    Yes,he had written so. The Jarrow problem is quite recent and back when he wrote the protocol, Jarrow was working fine,it was in his 5 -star category and recommended by him.

    This thread is very useful and has a lot of questions and answers by Fred, do check it out:

    Active B12 Protocol Basics

    Your doubt is also answered in the above thread:

    "Sasha said:
    Hi Freddd - just wondering why you've listed two methycobalamin supplements? Do we need to take both?
    Hi Sasha,

    These are the two 5 star tested mb12 sublinguals. I got my best healing taking both kinds and still do. They are slightly different presumably because of different bacteria used for brewing which is a known cause of small variations in the molecules.
    Fred"

    You can also post your question about the sugar problem in the above thread, maybe you get more replies there...




    I agree, both of them were the light of this forum. They are really missed. I would like to inform you that Fred came to this forum some days back. I think he will be back here when he gets better.
     
  6. dmac

    dmac

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    I moved it. Thanks so much.

    do you know if the drops should work? even without the sugar
     
  7. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I don't know. I have been taking sublinguals only.
     
  8. dmac

    dmac

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    The only reason I ask is , I am thinking it would work if the sugar is just in place for the taste and not as a catalist
     
  9. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I'm sorry Denise but I can't say. I don't have the knowledge about this and since I do not face issues with sugar, I have not researched it.
    Someone who has used drops will be in a better position to answer your doubt.

    Fred says that sublinguals are most effective when put between upper/lower gum and cheek for 45 minutes or so. So there is an absorption issue also with drops which you might want to consider. Keep reading some threads related to his protocol, you might find something...

    You can also go to Freddd's profile and send a private message to him regarding this and the capsule issue, so as to catch his attention the next time he is online.

    Please go to iherb.com and check out the ingredients of Methyl B12 products.I myself was browsing iherb and saw some sublinguals without mannitol,xylitol...

    http://www.iherb.com/Superior-Source-MicroLingual-Methylcobalamin-B12-5000-mcg-60-Tablets/26992?l=es

    http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Methylcobalamin-60-Veggie-Caps/18440

    I hope you find something useful.
    Good luck.:)
     
  10. dmac

    dmac

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    Thank you so much.

    yes i figured the absorption thing has something to do with it but others on Dr Rich that use drops do ok as well, if that protocol is working for them. I guess the drops are better still that the opening of a capsule, although I could hold the supplement longer in lip/cheek area than a drop. aaaarrrrrrrhhhhhh! I hate being sickkkkkk

    I can try one then the other. I will post to Freddd

    yes the ones B12 i found above from Pure encapsulation looks good as well
    and the throne Methy FOLATE looks good too, no sugar

    thanks for your help
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Denise,

    In my own personal trials I have for now found that the Anabol Dibencozide capsules used sublingually (no taste to speak of) works very well and is for now the number one adenosylb12. It ccaused a CNS startup for me after the crash casued by the change in the jarrow. I have tried mandy brands of mb12. DROPS DON"T WORK. Absorbtion is proportinal to time in contact with tissues. Also, mb12 in water deteriorates to useless if not in a continually opaque container. Even a few minutes exposure to room light is enough to ruin it. Adenosylb12 in solution lasts at most 5 days from personal experience AND in countries where it is marketed it is sold dry in vials and sterile saline is injected into the vial for mixing and to be discarded after 5 days. Whether any particular batch of crystal mb12 is CNS effective or not is a real tossup, 52 pickup style with all the cards jokers except maybe 1. I estimate somewhere between 1:10 and 1:50 are potentially effective if not ruined along the way.

    I use the 10mg Anabol adb12 capsule by putting the contents, 1/4 at a time along my gum line next to my lower lip. Each such dose lasts 3 hours and I do the whole capsule once a week to get it into the CNS.

    Once you have had an effective mb12 it's easy to tell the difference. Non-effective mb12 allows symptoms to start returning in days. Lack of l-methylfolate can cause endless hypersensitivities in the gut that go away. There is often a 4 way deadlock requiring at least mb12, adb12, l-mehtylfolate and l-carnitine that WORKS for the person (usually l-carntine fumarate but sometimes ALCAR. People with "anxiety" have to be careful as they may have neurological hypersensitivity to specifically adb12 OR l-carnitine. The l-carnitine should always be taken last for that reason and it can be titrated from 100mcg. Detais are posted on a suitable thread spme months ago. Many people may also have up to half a dozen additional items involved in that deadlock. For many most of the hypesensitivies go away about a year into healing if all the needed items are present.

    Sugart is in no way needed. I have put a sprinkle of pure crystal under my lip and it works fine, very fast and effective becasue of very high diffusion gradiant. B12 has no identifiable taste to me.
     
  12. dmac

    dmac

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    Freddd,

    Thank you so much.

    I have ordered the Dibencozide from iherb .

    In terms of the methy B12 from pure encapsulation..
    *Do you think that will be sufficient under the tongue? as much so as the ET B12 infusion (fuctose)?

    *Got a little lost with the pure crystal mb12. where do i get this? or is the pure encapsulation the same thing you are talking about?

    *Also the Throne mfolate instead of solgar metafolin (mannitol)
    Hopefully as good?

    I have read all your articles and protocol, revision of protocol, JACKPOT post on folic acid and still trying to let it all sink in.

    *I did see a post you wrote of how you put into sequence what to take and what order
    and I can not find it now, lost in translation ;0

    do you have a link on hand that you can re -send.
    I remember reading your protocol first (I thought it said M12 first ), THEN reading the sequence article and it said to start with dibencozide, or I thought it did.

    I would so appreciate the sequence post if you can find it or point me to the right place. I will keep looking.

    Again thank you so much for taking the time

    Be well
    GOD speed

    Denise
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Denise,

    *Got a little lost with the pure crystal mb12. where do i get this? or is the pure encapsulation the same thing you are talking about?

    Capsules of mb12 or adb12 have little flecks of crystal in them. I had some pure crystal. It probably works better with some carrier as in the capsule to hold it in place in a pasty mass against the gum and lip. I have done the dibol capsule that way and it works the same as oure crystal. I have no idea if the BRAND of mb12 you are trying is any good at the crystal level. Almost nothing else appears to matter.

    In a post from August I mentioned the combined Adb12 and mb12 and metafolin titration startting low, going to criteria of healing turnon, methylation turneon and/or nervous system turn on. That is usually but not always accompanied by low potassium and low methylfolate.


    I'm working on a new write up.

    *Also the Throne mfolate instead of solgar metafolin (mannitol)
    Hopefully as good?

    I don't know. You can do an A-B comparison and see.
     
  14. dmac

    dmac

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    Thanks again Freddd,

    I am new at some of the terminology
    I don't mean to be a hound but what to clear a few things up.
    I understand we don't know what may help until we try.

    I will try the brands I mentioned about for the Mb12, Mfolate and dibencozide b12 from herb you suggested.
    I will also get the carnitine fumarate
    *is there a brand of that you recommend ? I have look but can not find it.

    I will start with all 3 supplements together titrating up slowly.

    *I would like to know when to add the co-fators. I have the list of which ones to do but , not sure which to add first and how long into the healing process to add them.
    I will forward to the new write up but if you can provide additional info, i would appreciate that.

    *
    " Each such dose lasts 3 hours and I do the whole capsule once a week to get it into the CNS."
    Do you do 1/4 cap every 3 hours per DAY or week (as started above)?

    * Just curious, where did you get the pure cystal? and do you use that now since the jarrow thing?
    or do u just use the 2 b12 and 1 folate...
    ET b12 infusion, b12 dibencozide from i herb and solgar Mfolate ?

    I have the hypoKPP that happens to me even now without the protocol in place. I believe I "got this" in the moldy house. That is when I started to have sx of muscle weakness when I eat sugar or salt, laid real still, got too hot or to cold. I read about the hypokpp and it said it could dev with a gene mutation or massive loss of potassium over a long period of time. This happened with a great deal of lose through diarrhea in the mold house, parasites i also suspect. I thought I either had a gene mutation that just showed up in the moldy house or the lose of potassium from the diarrhea and it was permanent
    Then I read a article by Mike Dessin saying, when having massive toxins in body, this causes a ion channel disfunction, potassium, sodium and calcium. (which is what hypookpp is) So I hoped by ridding the toxins this balance would come back into balance He talks about pulling the toxins off the cell with things like glutathione and mag IV's (that would detox me too fast ) and ridding the body. I am hoping with detox, chelation of Hg/metals and opening up the methyaltion (I have a least one gene C677t hetro) I can rid the Hypokpp as well.
    If I try other detox treatments, like ozone insufffiation or sauna, my muscles get weak and present as HYPOKPP, so I supplement with potassium anyway.
    *do you kno anything else that ties in like this that i explained for the HYPOKPP.

    I have found it intriguing what you found and wrote about "Paradoxical Folate Def" with sulfur foods, supplements, glutathione and it's precursors, causing this.
    I have studied and implemented Dr Andy Cutler's Hg FDC protocol and he has a thing for the sulfur items mentioned above, but says the use of these will make one feel worse if high in Hg bc/ these things re distribute the Hg (esp to the brain) causing lots of problems.
    And lastly on MTHFR support it is started and believed that if one has CBS gene mutation that mutation and the supplement items mentioned above, the sulfur, glutathione/precursors cause what you speak of, a much worse feeling and back to square one with sx.
    It make me wonder if there was validity to this and if indeed you had a CBS gene mutation?
    Did you even take any of the genetic test and/or methy pathway panels? and if maybe that was the reason you retched so badly to the sulfur, etc while on the protocol and the CBS mutation caused the paradoxical filate def.
    just a thought .
    wish i wasn't so sick b/c i find this stuff fascinating .

    thanks for all your help
    denise
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Denise,

    I have b12 in my mouth 14 hours a day right now to keep my nervous system from falling apart. One day a week I take a 10mg adb12 cap in 4 doses in addition to 30 x 1mg Enzymatic Therapy, to reach a high enough blood level to get it into the CNS.

    The l-carnitine fumarate is Jarrow or Doctors best that is effective. If a person has anxiety I suggest the Jarrow liquid carnitine which is a freebase, and all of it is made by Sigma Tau in Italy, so they can titrate form 100mcg instead of 500mg.. I have no idea if sulfer has anything to do with the paradoxical folate deficiency. It does have everythong to do with the form of folate or taking glutathione or NAC or Whey. Glutathione does so becasue it destroys all the active b12 that isn't in use and flushes it from the body as glutathionylcbl. It is not at all sulfer connected. So far I have not decided to waste my money on testing becasue all the peole coming from testing that are beinbg advised to use folinic acid and to expect "detox" that is really paradoxical folate deficiency leads me to the nonsense theory hypothesis

    Most of the toxins ideas lead to nonsense that doesn't work. If hypokalemia is NOT supplemented with potasium you can die. That is the correct story. Potassium is used for making cells. Toxins have NOTHING to do with it. NONSENSE! Of course occcasionally somebody really does have some kind of toxic condition. However, 50:1 odds will make you a lot of money if you bet on hypokalemia correctable with potassium and paradoxical folate deficiency correctable with methylfolate. And then there are about another dozen deficiencies it could be, all before potential toxins have a chance of being the cause of anything.

    You have a substantial chance of substantial healing if you ignore all the nonsense and just do the active b12/folate protocol and rather than get tied up with interpreting the 600 biochemical defects introduced by these deficiencies. Chasing those is chasing phantoms. and doesn't work out any better. People doing this often get themselves backed into corners from which they will not allow themselves an exit.

    I am going to get an updated version up soon. Use the decision tree in the "translating" post to decied what the "detox" is and whether to use potasium and or additional Metafolin.
     
  16. dmac

    dmac

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    Thanks again,

    When I first read your protocol you were taking, this was after the folic acid discover...

    Jarrow Mb12 sublingal
    Enzermatic Therapy M B12 infusion
    b12 dibencozide (folic acid free)
    solgar M folate

    then the jarrow crash

    so now are you on just the 3 produces below.

    ET MB12 infustion - using this 30 x 1mg, a week? sorry i am confused
    i herb B12 dibencozide (once a week)
    solgar m folate
    what other Mb12 are u using (14 hrs a day?)

    just want to follow the proper protocol that helped you get better.

    the sulfur foods were mentioned b/c in your articles you said folic rich leafy greens, I looked up the list and it is all sulfur vegetables, spinach, kale, swiss chard, etc
    and NAC and whey are sulfur
    glutathione and precursors are taurine, glycine, glutamine which are not sulfur but,
    it seems sulfur does play a role in PFD paradoxical folate def,
    maybe not the glutathione as you say b/c of flushing the unused active b12 from the body

    well I know how sick i am from toxic overload. I have had stool test show the amount of bacteria, yeast and parasites in my gut
    As Dr Rich pointed out many times as does Dr Cutler that Hg can damage and cause blocks within the methylation pathways as can genetics. I have both. I feel I got so sick because I have had Hg in mouth since i was little, as well my mom, all my vaccines, and i do believe i will not rid my pathogens until all the metals are gone through chelation . I believe the Hg messed with my methyl as did the genetics.
    I am sick because my methyl is blocked and that is what I am trying here. And I do believe toxins, Hg, environmental and pathogens are all contributing to my decline in health. If I lack the ability to detox due to the methy blocks.

    I was encouraged when you said lack of Mfolate can cause endless hypersensitive in gut. I am looking forward to that helping my gut get better and hopefully rid some of the pathogens as well as my methyl opens up.

    I look forward to your update/re vision
    and thanks for all your help to me at this time
    and God speed to you
    denise
     
  17. dmac

    dmac

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  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    ET MB12 infustion - using this 30 x 1mg, a week? sorry i am confused

    PER DAY 5X1MG 6 TIMES A DAY. One day a week I do the dibencozide as 4 x 2.5mg each 3 hours.

    the sulfur foods were mentioned b/c in your articles you said folic rich leafy greens, I looked up the list and it is all sulfur vegetables, spinach, kale, swiss chard, etc
    and NAC and whey are sulfur
    glutathione and precursors are taurine, glycine, glutamine which are not sulfur but,
    it seems sulfur does play a role in PFD paradoxical folate def,
    maybe not the glutathione as you say b/c of flushing the unused active b12 from the body

    It is FOLATE content (folinic acid) that causes the problem as far as I know. I have the same effect by taking a folinic acid pill. Sulpher has NOTHING to do with it for PFD.

    Hg can damage and cause blocks within the methylation pathways as can genetics.
    Hg combines with mb12 completely destroying itt and casuing mb12 deficiency. Of coyrse it blocks methylation. 80% of Hg symptoms are b12 deficincy symptoms.


    I am sick because my methyl is blocked

    Highly likely.

    I feel I got so sick because I have had Hg in mouth since i was little, as well my mom, all my vaccines, and i do believe i will not rid my pathogens until all the metals are gone through chelation . I believe the Hg messed with my methyl as did the genetics

    Highly unlikely. However such beliefs can be tested. If you try the active b12 and folate without attention to mercury you will probably get rid of more symptoms more effectively more quickly. Now I do include alpha liopoic acid and selenium in the protocol as highly desireable additions. However, even as Hg ruins mb12 the mercury is converted to a form that the liver removes at 1% per day approximately. It removes 50% of the applicable mecury each 71 days. If anybody here managed to get excessive expsoure to mercury it was me. Methylb12 is perhaps the most effective neuro protective and anti-toxin. I was told the same things you have been. As al the other theoeires fell so did that one. Out of hundreds of tries, and theories by more than 100 practitioners, every one of them got it wrong. Also, there is so little outstanding success that it is likly below chance recovery or the dozens of other things people do. I started working on this in 1979, solved it as far as I could go at that time, that cyanocbl and hydroxycbl were not the real thing. I watched for all the clues to healing neuropathies as that was my largest symptoms set. Hg causes all sorts of neuropathies too or maybe, of course. In any case I chased down some hundreds of reports of peoeple healed. The only ones that succeeded substantially were using methylb12, 100% of successes. However, only 5 % taking mb12 for neuropathies suceeded. Nothing else helped anybody with enough to calculate a reasonablle percentage except for zero. The genetics don't predict success because they can't distinguish paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency or the overwhelming advantage to mb12 and adb12 in combination. It's simply that none of the "detox" theories have a measurable payoff in being "cured' though it happens with almost anything occasionally. I'm more use to working with people for whom everything has failed. That way they are more desparate to do something effective and that doesn't cost them an arm and a leg for doing no good and/or making them worse. When it is these vitamin deficiencies nothing else can possible do much good and they are effective almost immediately. In fact the intensity of onset can be troubling. healing doesn't feel good and it can induce hypokalemia and PFD in 3 days which verifies that healing has turned on and will make a person totally sick and miserable if severe and can be dangerous if continued. They can also be relieved starting the same day.


    In any case I like to see people reduce to the basics, vitamins and minerals and oils, getting rid of all unknowns and potential problems and interactions, then to build the new steructure from the beginning, and then start with 1/4 of an Enzymatic Therapy mb12 and about 1/10 of the adb12 capsule sprinkled out between lower lip and gum. The b-complex should be without any form of folic acid, folinic acid, calcium folinate, etc., only some form of methylfolate or no folate. I like to see the Solgar Metafolin to start with becasue I am familiar with it's potency and effects. Then titrate the mb12 and adb12 moving up by the same amount each day until the neurological "brightening" occurs. At that point within a day ot two the potassium will likely drop and follow the descison tree for hypokalemia and folate insufficiency. Then after the potassium and metafolin are brought to a balance with the rate of healing the symptoms will be very clear and some of them will be feeling better and you wll feel them way more intensly and clearly and often find what helps becasue it becomes so obvious. Anyway, if you can learn to recognize the clues you can make much faster progress.

    Carnitine is the trickiest of the Deadlock Quartet and is done either if no startup occurs by 1mg tablet of mb12 or after the first 3 and potassium are stable.
     

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