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B12 without folate causes oxidative stress...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by PeterPositive, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hello,
    I was listening to this relatively recent interview with dr. Ben Lynch.
    http://mthfr.net/dr-lynch-discusses-mthfr-on-the-eva-herr-show/2013/09/03/

    At the beginning the doctor mentions that methylcobalamin without adequate levels of folate becomes an oxidative agent. I don't think I have ever heard about this and I was wondering if anyone had links to studies on this aspect. I searched those key words but wasn't able to find anything relevant.

    Anyways, it's a pretty interesting interview, check it out.

    Thank you
  2. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    The point is...how do you quantify the amount of folate.. i mean for exaple me i do not have a MTHFR 677 mutation (but am only hetero for 1298) i eat tons of veeggie and i juice vegtables every day.. another person maybe have a mutation of MTHFR and eat very little veggie so how do you decide how much is "adequate" intake of folate in respect of methylb12?
    Snowdrop and Helen like this.
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Good point.
    In supplements there's normally a 1.2 - 2:1 ratio.
    Example 800mcg folate, 1000mcg B12.

    In any case the idea is that B12 requires folate to do its work. If you are low in dietary folates and start a high dose B12 supplementation, part of it will turn into oxidative agent. At least this is what I understood from dr. Lynch.
    Hanna likes this.
  4. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    I want to believe that because as I see my folate intake quantity keeps rising so if we assume that there is a certain proportion between mb12 and folate, then with less mb12 the ammount of folate needed would decrease... However @Freddd says differently. Plus at mtfhr.net they list the symtomps of high folate intake as overdose symptoms while fred mentions the same symptoms but he says it is deffeciency symptoms due to lack of folate which at least for me seems to be correct as while I increase my folate intake then the symptoms go away
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Actually most B complexes and multis contain more folate than B12. And the human body also contains more.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi zz0r,

    There is no specific ratio. The amount of folate needed appears to be about the same from about 100mcg absorbed or wherever healing is turned on, of MeCbl and AdoCbl to 30mg daily injected and even 180mg daily injected..
  7. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    We have to find a common ground here or at least let them know our views that are based on experience @Freddd . Have you ever tried to point your theory about paradoxical folate insuffeciency at mthfr.net ? The Dr there have different views on the matter.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Just because somebody put X amount of something into a pill doesn't mean it's the right amount or in the right ratio. Even if a multi had more B12 than folate, it's oral B12, which is only absorbed 1-2% (about the same as a couple of hamburgers).

    Therefore, for most people this would either cause methyl trapping or depletion of B12 stores. If you're already low or deficient as most ME/CFS patients are, this can actually cause B12 deficiency, the very thing you're trying to prevent. This happened to me. I'm still digging out from 6 or 7 years ago. You have to take a non-oral B12 in addition to whatever is in the multi to get adequate B12.

    Some people require very large amounts of folate (grams instead of mcg) to get a response - in this case, the amount in a multivitamin would likely do nothing.
    helen1 likes this.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Yes. I have. But not in maybe a year. I understand that. I'm working from experience of my own here and of lots of people as opposed to a hypothetical basis.

    Whatever makes all the folate insufficiency/deficiency symptoms go away is an adequate dose. As long as there is "enough" MeCbl and AdoCbl, 100mcg + or thereabouts is my best. More makes for slight faster healing and deeper tissue penetration quicker. A LOT more, 30mg injected daily in 2 to 4 subcutaneous injections can turn on CNS healing but doesn't affect the amount of methylfolate needed much.

    What folate insufficiency/deficiency symptoms do you have? I usually don't have any now.
  10. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Interesting. Does the some figure (1-2%) apply also to folate and/or other B's that you know of?
  11. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    Listen people I believe on @Freddd theory about paradoxical folate deffeciency because it works 100% on me. Different ammount of folate exposes different layers of symptoms and healing and as you increase the dose up you have to deal with something else until you reach your optimum dose where you have no symptoms. This theory works for me and I am atually 70% cured at the moment, the only thing that remains is to deal with my unsteady walking gait and that is why I do not vote in the poll just yet.

    Also freddd you should be aiming to point your theory out to other profesionals that deals with snp polymorphisms or cfs or whatever because they might have more funds to do more research on different things that we can not.
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    As far as I know, it's only B12 with this problem.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPositive,

    Folates are well absorbed with or without food. B12s are not well absorbed. The 1-2% is of the bulk of it absorbed by diffusion through the tissue. According to research the first 10mcg or thereabouts is absorbed in the 90 percent range via IF and a very complicated absorption system with a multitude of ways to go wrong. This was discovered in in the late 30s with a fear factor style treatment of 2 liters of raw liver puree daily. Many choose to die of pernicious anemia rather than drink that daily. My grandfather survived ALS for more than 30 years consuming the concentrated liver extract from 5 pounds of liver daily.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Also freddd you should be aiming to point your theory out to other profesionals that deals with snp polymorphisms or cfs or whatever because they might have more funds to do more research on different things that we can not

    What makes you think I don't? The problem is getting the real study through an IRB. It has too many factors and too many decision trees (complications). The problem is breaking it apart in pieces that can be done with very few items. So breakdown studies from light get done in all sorts of expensive ways without ever touching people. Serum halflife studies in people have a possibility if they have the right twist. Funding of something that won't produce a product have very little opportunity. Looking for the genetic carnitine differences might be able to hit pay dirt. Looking for biological markers within the CFS and FMS population could pay off if the right ones can be pointed at.

    Self funded studies, paid for by the participants might have a chance. I've talked to researchers and I am getting some things ready to go approach some with several ideas.

    There is presently some funding possibilities for patient suggested research but that is where one runs into IRB (Institutional Review Boards) problems. They have to be sold on it.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    When I started I was on MeCbl without anything but the usual base vitamins with folic acid. I had 9 months of phenomenal healing on a couple of levels with worse paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms on multiple levels and low potassium problems.

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