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b12 shot even if not deficient?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fibrodude84, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    My B12 levels are normal but I'm wondering if the shot might help anyway. I'm desperate.
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Help for what? Can you be specific?
    Have you tried taking B12 in other forms? Maybe oral or sublingual? What type and dosage?
  3. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    Help for persistent fatigue and weakness. I get b12 from multi and food. I'm not deficient but wondering if I may get an energy boost from an injection.
  4. Coolie

    Coolie

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    Just bear in mind that the only reason, as far as I know, that people are injected with B12 is because they are missing "intrinsic factor" which carries B12 through the stomach acid. So the fact you are not deficient in B12 shows you are not one of the people with that problem.
  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I am not familiar with B12 injections. They are certainly very effective according to the medical literature and the experiences of people from this forum.

    Many people here, myself included, have experienced significant benefits from high dose B12 supplementation. Personally I take sublingual tabs, never done shots. I started slowly at 500mcg and increased over time to 5-6000mcg

    The problem with "not being deficient" is ... how do you know you don't really are? Lab test simply show serum B12 which is close to meaningless at spotting a deficiency unless it's really a major one. Vit B12 is a really complicated substance that requires transformation, activation, transport and folate support. If any of these mechanisms is not working correctly you can get a deficiency even if your lab shows "normal" values.

    B12 runs the central wheel of the methylation cycle, but many people with CFS/ME have it half blocked or slow running... this is another issue where deficiency symptoms can arise without being detected by most labs.

    So, bottom line is trying. B12 is possibly one of the least toxic water-soluble vitamins and if you build the dosage slowly enough you shouldn't have any problems. If you do, stop immediately and if you can consult with a medical doctor before starting, much better. Unfortunately not many mainstream docs are up to date with active B12 protocols and methylation issues.

    The best forms would be Methyl-B12 and Adenosyl-B12 which have different functions in the body, the latter being active in the mitochondria for energy production while the former works with the nervous system.

    Final recommendation take also a look at the B12 threads by Freddd. He's an advocate of active B12 protocols and has a long experience of B12 supplementation both orally via injections. He also provides lots of details on how to work with the two different forms of active B12 and how to add methyl-folate, which is essential for proper methylation functioning and works in conjunction with B12.

    cheers
    ahmo and fibrodude84 like this.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI fibrodude,

    The B12 tests that give a "normal" range are very misleading. I was dying and having a neurodegenerative disease from b12 deficiency while having "normal" levels. They are dangerously misleading. What are your symptoms. As much b12 research says, "Only a trial can tell if b12 can help you". However, a sublingual trial of both active b12s and l-methylfolate and LCF can tell you that. Sublingual MeCbl and AdoCbl can be 100to 10,000 times more effective than CyCbl injection you are most likely to get. I was dying while and partly because I was taking CyCbl.

    I think the best starting point is learning more about what you are doing and then go about it in a way that could help. What are you symptoms? Here is a list that gives nutrient responsive symptoms of FMS/CFS/ME etc.

    SYMPTOMS LIST 07/26/14

    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

    morning joint stiffness and pain
    paleness
    acid reflux
    nausea
    daily vomiting
    standing with eyes closed, lose balance
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atrophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    burning muscle pain
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    sore burning tongue

    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    Bursitis
    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittent diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bulimia
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hyper segmented neutrophils
    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrhic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores


    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff
    Drowsy


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Clumsiness


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin


    Slow to adapt to night vision


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


    Difficulty in word finding



    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle



    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.





    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations


    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse



    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding


    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo


    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body



    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Just use sublingual methyl b12, it is much cheaper and offers the same effect.
  8. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    I have crohns so the body doesn't absorb properly so I think if it works it would be a shot.
  9. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    No, not necessarily. Sublingual tablets are absorbed by the oral mucosa, not the GI tract.
  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    • The serum B12 test is useless - it can read normal or high and you can be deficient
    • B12 from a multi is oral and is therefore useless - at best it only absorbs 1-2%
    • Cyanocobalamin - used in most multi's is a synthetic form and not well absorbed
    • The best forms are hydroxycobalamin, or methylcobalamin + adenosylcobalamin
    • You can get B12 from the diet, but not enough to dig out from a deficiency
    • The latest info is that sublinguals might be even better than injections
    • Sublinguals bypass the stomach so it doesn't matter if you gut problems
    Check out B12 Info #1 and #2 by Chris Kresser (linked in my signature).

    Have you checked with your doctor to rule out other reasons for fatigue and weakness????
  11. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    I'm going to try sublingual b12 and see what happens. Doctors have tested much over the years with no indication.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Fibrodude,

    Right now my 5 star rating is on the Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion, 1mg MeCbl. An it is best if held between bum and lip for 45-120+ minutes.
  13. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    You mean gum, @Freddd , gum and lip, right? :p
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HA!. Yes, I meant gum. Guilty as typo.
  15. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Ahhh. I was going to demand pictures of @Freddd's contortion act holding that ET between bum and lip. :rofl:
    whodathunkit, Gingergrrl and ahmo like this.
  16. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    Thanks, I'm going to try that one.
  17. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    I didn't see Enzymatic Therapy so I purchased Jarrow Formula methyl b12. It's not sublingual but sounds good.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Fibrodude,

    Unless it has changed again, it went down to maybe 3 stars about 2-3 years ago and doesn't give the same level of neurological healing according to a bunch of us all crashing at about the same time. I had a demyelination event a few months after it went bad. I had CNS startup all over again with 30mg of ENZY. Many of the online sellers have it for about half the price of local stores often. NONE of them can be indicated as "sublingual". The FDA forced them to change their labeling a few years ago. "SUBLINGUAL" is for proven medications from official trials according to the FDA.
    fibrodude84 likes this.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    My daughter the gymnast might have been able to do that at 12. I can't even imagine the flexibility that position would require. If you see me in it assume I am seriously injured.
  20. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84

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    I spoke to Jarrow and asked why they don't carry sublingual and they said some of it is released through the oral mucosa and others in gut but that their research doesn't substantiate that sublingual does much good. I'll try this one and if it doesn't help I will try a liquid or under the tongue wafer.

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