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B12 protocol, no startup from anything so far.. what does it mean?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Stillgoing, May 28, 2013.

  1. EastWest

    EastWest

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    I worked up gradually to my current doses over a 6 month period. Currently take 37.5 mg MB12 by injection daily in 3 divided doses with more in the earlier part of the day. 18.75 mg folate (Deplin). I have been taking 6 ADB12 daily (Source Naturals or Anabol) but have recently been able to cut that back to 1-3 daily and am doing okay.

    When I started the protocol I was already taking MB12 but only 5 mg twice a week by injection. I had to get the folate way up before I could add more B12. I started using OTC folate but when I had to take so many I asked for a script and switched to Deplin. I improved noticeably after that switch.
    Creekee likes this.
  2. EastWest

    EastWest

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    Sure. Here's kind of a summary of what happened: Last Nov I switched to Deplin 15 mg folate, and got a bigger supply of injectable MB12 and started increasing my dosage. In December my MB12 dosage was up to about 30 mg a day injected. I started to feel much better.

    My doc had run some labs in November, and in January, based on my amino acid levels, I restarted LCF which I had used for awhile and then didn't seem to tolerate. I started using both LCF and ALCAR, sometimes I need one or the other. Along with that, I started taking methionine, threonine, and BCAA. I restarted the LCF and the other aminos at approximately the same time, LCF probably started first. With these amino acids I had major startup symptoms for about a month, but did not have that with the folate and B12 increases I mentioned. I had previously had some start up with LCF but nothing like this. So I think it was possibly getting all these aminos on board that really started things going.
  3. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    planet earth

    Good info. thanks. Sounds like you are working with a pretty good doc.

    It sounds like the logic for adding those aminos was based on a actual reading from your amino acids test?
    Do you remember what the name of the test he ran by any chance? I recall Rich Van K mentioning he liked to use a test called methlylation pathways panel that directly measures the output.

    No need to respond or dig it up if it is inconvienient or exhausting.

    Hope you continue to improve. :)

    Jarod
  4. EastWest

    EastWest

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    Jarod, it was Doctor's Data Amino Acids; Urine 24-hr test. I've had other methylation related testing in the past. And yes I have a very good doc, so I am fortunate. He does not follow the lab "recommendations" on these labs, but looks at the raw data and does his own interpretation.

    The interesting thing to me was the shift in my amino acids since on the protocol. Previously I needed to supplement glycine, taurine, and NAC, and also give myself NAC shots and glutathionine shots. After starting the protocol, I dropped NAC and GSH, but stayed on taurine and glycine. After six months, my GSH level was the best we have ever seen. My doc was very impressed by that. Then the new amino acid test showed the need for methionine, threonine, and BCAA; this is support for another part of the methylation cycle. After a couple of months I felt like I needed the taurine again so added it back in.

    My digestion has improved on the protocol but I still probably can't do well enough on my own to get these nutrients.
    vortex and Jarod like this.
  5. vortex

    vortex

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    I want your doc !

    I have had about 9 different integrative docs that are the type that could/would or have ordered these type of tests but none who really understood methylation or what to do with the test results per se.

    I am tired of dealing with doctors that I know more than they do.

    Do you mind sharing who your doc is or send it to me PM please ?
  6. vortex

    vortex

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    oh and by the way, it is interesting to see you having success with high amounts of methylfolate. I know rich was not a fan of higher dose as I remember him saying.

    "However, I do not favor raising the overall dosage of B12 very much above 2,000 micrograms per day, and especially not when it is combined with dosages of methyfolate that are much above the RDA range of 400 to 800 micrograms per day. This combination can overdrive the methylation cycle and hinder the rise of glutathione. -richvank"

    This seems not to be the case with you ? this is interesting news if people are stuck and not getting results because they are sticking to low doses because of fear of richs concern.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Stillgoing,

    Many people have one episode of startup and settle into equilibrium, A Dose of 1-5mg each of MeCbl and AdoCbl is quite enough as a background with the methylfolate. The next part of the deadlock to add is L-carnitine fumarate, and if that doesn't ALCAR needs to be tried. After than the next most likely things, keeping everything else going and add, SAM-e, then Alpha Lipoic acid, then D-ribose, then biotin, zinc, vit D. It is assumed you are already taking A, b-complex (low dose), C, 3000iu D, E, magnesium, zinc in a multi-mineral.

    The 3mg AdoCbl indicates to me likely using the Country Life Dibencozide with folic acid. If you have paradoxical folate deficiency that could be blocking you. Try Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex. Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion is the only 5 star MeCbl brand I currently know of for reliable results kept in place for 45-120 minutes. Below is the checklist for most of the reasons b12 therapies don't work. These are very exacting. It can fail 100% for each of the reasons.


    THE 95% REASONS B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES FAIL
    Version 2.0 - 03/10/11, Version 2.1 - 05/08/11. Version 3.0 – 10/25/2012, Version 3.1 10/26/2012, Version 11/05/2012 3.2
    1) They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10-30mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesn’t work, oh well, that’s the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzymes or ATP
    2) They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorption to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12. Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorption back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorption is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorption tests comparing sublingual absorption to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.
    3) Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.
    4) For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesn’t work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.
    5) They don’t take BOTH active b12s.
    6) They don’t take enough active b12s for the purpose.
    7) Lack of methylfolate
    8) Lack of sufficient Methylfolate, a dose can start more healing than the same dose can complete.
    9) Paradoxical Folate Deficiency - Folic acid is taken which can block at least 10 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 10-20 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.
    10) Lack of l-carnitine fumarate (rarely ALCAR), the 4th of the Deadlock Quartet
    11) Lack of other critical cofactors.
    12) Lack of basic cofactors
    13) Glutathione, glutathione direct precursors, NAC and /or whey is taken causing what is often called "detox" while actually being induced folate and b12 deficiencies.
    14) Having many additional supplements and herbs of unknown interactions and effects.
    15) Too much B1 and/or B2 and/or B3, somewhere between 30-100mg daily (divided 2 doses) of any one or combination.
  8. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    @Freddd - You haven't found problems with the Alpha Lipoic Acid, given that it is shown in studies to boost glutathione?
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    No problem at all. The amounts generated internally from the required items appear to be produced only in \needed quantities. Obviously there is a safe level that ones body needs. I'd guess that there is a fuzzy area where there are some clues to coming problem, as with the B1, B2 and B3. There is probably an optimum level for each person with the peak maybe pretty sharp and maybe broad. In any control system maintaining a homeostasis, which our bodies behave as if having, there are factors that limit, that have a maximum effect and that's it. Then there are things that drive other operations, perhaps well past optimum, such as we see with too much b1,b2 and b3 and clearly with glutathione. The problem with glutathione is that combining with all MeCbl and AdoCbl in circulation is a near instantaneous chemical reaction if there is some unknown amount of glutathione (and maybe who knows what other x-factors) in the cell itself and thereby puts the person into methyltrap if they are not already there. A way to avoid methyltrap is to be deep enough in partial methylation block that moderate folate deficiency symptoms presides instead of severe folate deficiency of methyltrap. The processes appear to break differently from methyltrap versus partial methylation block. The MeCbl deficiency symptoms not requiring folate, start returning around the 3rd day and AdoCbl in perhaps 4-6 weeks at the leading edge.

    So with the Alpha Lipoic Acid I perceive a small increase in energy, but only when I do without it for a week or so does it drop below a "sufficient" level as indicated by notable or no noticeable effect on restart. Glutathione produced in the body happens in a slow dribble as needed as far as I can understand. It isn't in huge surplus for hours. That may be the cause of the problem as such. I have been watching everything for 5 years of added damage to myself and wondering what I should have seen to avoid this damage and yet learn how to distinguish methyltrap from partial methylation block. I broke my own rules to try glutathione. Why did so many people dismiss methyltrap as "detox" and tolerate it for so long? The big cluefor both NAC and glutathione are "Return of previous symptoms" as a symptom/characteristic. For all 10 of us 100% of the symptoms were "return of previous symptoms" that we had already dealt with. We just needed to get hit over the head with it to make us notice.

    There are lot's of theories out there. Most of them are wrong.
  10. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Interesting. I didn't respond so well to ALA, but other glutathione precursors have been key in being able to tolerate any useful doses of almost all supplements.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    What happened when you took ALA, details please, hypotheses if you have some. It might fit together with other things.

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