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B12/methylation and dark yellow urine (viral die-off?)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by kday, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    I was trying to avoid this question, as the methods we used are anything but conventional. Anyway, with the risk of looking nuts, I did an LED laser energetic detox with zeolite and spirulina. Don't ask me how it works. I have no clue, but it seemed like it made me have to urinate every 5 minutes for about 24 hours. As you know, I usually tend retain water, so this was very odd for me.

    My appointments and tests are covered under insurance, but this type of detox is not.

    I'm going to add to the body of anectodal evidence that this is highly effective. While he does have an IV room, I don't think my CFS doc really likes conventional chelation.

    Coincidentally, I found another thread here:

    http://me-cfsmethylation.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=227

    This member found it effective as well.

    Keep in mind, I felt pretty bad for a while after the detox, and was pleasantly surprised when my body decided to start detoxing on its own for the first time.

    I used to take ultra-high doses of B12 shots (25 mg/ml) along with all the other stuff daily to feel better, and I took my first B12 shot today for the first day in several weeks.

    Be well.
  2. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    I haven't updated this thread in a while, but I am starting to get irritated by all this!

    This Dark Urine has continued for many months now without supplementation. I am retaining fluid every day, and have to drink a ton of water to get it out. It is very foamy as well.

    During my birthday, I had a beer. For whatever reason, this halted my methylation. I could pee normally for several days. My urine looked normal, but I felt terrible. I took sublingual B12/Folate/P5P a couple days later to get my cycle going again, and it went. However, it haven't been having such an intense amber color like before, and I am waking up again at 6 AM now. I was sleeping well. My labs have got a lot better. Testosterone a couple hundred points higher, DHEA-S high end of normal. Thyroid is now smack in the middle of normal range. My relatively severe hypercoagulation is gone. However, I am still detoxing. I am continuing to drink many liters of water a day as it's the only way to flush this crap out.

    I have had elevated liver enzymes, but I got them down with ALA, Vitamin E, Selenium, Dandelion root.

    I don't believe this is a toxin stored in my body anymore. It doesn't make any sense. There is no way my body could store and endlessly release so much crap. It doesn't make sense that I feel a lot better when it comes out, and feel a lot worse when my urine looks more normal. There is no literature anywhere on this phenomenon. Doctors have no clue.

    Whatever this crap is, it causes intense chest pain when it is not being continually released in high volumes. Most of the chest pain occurs in the morning hours from about 6 AM - 8 AM.

    Doxycycline helped with chest pain and neurological symptoms a lot, but when I go off, they come back hard and fast. Last time I stopped, the neurological symptoms and crushing chest pain came back (at exactly the same time) with extreme intensity 7 days after stopping it.

    Bacterial endotoxin? Can't find any literature. Are any endotoxins methylated? What endotoxin? Viral? What virus?

    I'm inclined to believe it's bacterial since doxycycline helps with the same type of pain. It was very hard staying on doxycycline as it caused much more intense chest pain before relieving it.

    If I were to give myself a B12 shot megadose, I would feel better, my urine would get much darker (no, I'm not talking about the red color we all know about or vitamin colored urine), and I would retain more fluid. I would bet that 1 or 2 shots in a row would probably get this detoxing going continuously just like it was before. I am not going to kill my kidneys and liver, so that's why I am trying to minimize the amount of detox (or whatever it is).

    Is there a test that can check to see what the heck is coming out of my urine. Maybe toxins or endotoxins? Can some type of microscopic analysis possibly help? I have had too many UAs and liver function tests, and then since that is fine, doctors ignore these important symptoms.

    I wish there was literature or anything that could explain what I could be dealing with, but I continue to find nothing.
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Kevin.

    I would suggest analyzing your urine in two ways: a Doctor's Data urine toxic and essential elements panel (this would include arsenic, which you've reported to be a suspect), and a toxicology test that would look for organic chemicals. The first is available from www.directlabs.com without a doctor's order. The second would be available from nmslabs in Pennsylvania: http://www.nmslabs.com/support-contact/ I would suggest calling them and talking to a client representative. I think you would need a high performance liquid chromatograph (HPLC) or a gas chromatograph-mass spectrometer (GCMS) test on your urine, looking for whatever shows up. You might have to talk to them to figure out which test you need, and then get your doctor to order it.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  4. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    I've read somewhere that people can detox for a long time.

    I also know what you mean about alcohol stopping methylation. I guess it might be the liver that is damaged by alcohol and that could be what stops it.

    I had some improvement with taking zinc while methylating. Had to take like 250 mg a day right in the morning on an empty stomach. It was per the Klinghardt KPU protocol. Careful though, this can cause intense metal detox, beucase the zinc displaces the lead.

    I think you are in the sweet spot. Good luck!

    I get the same problems from caffine by the way. My urine goes from being yellow without caffine to clear when I do drink caffine. I guess it has something to do with the bodies ability to absorb vitamins.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kday,

    There is a 100% predictable way to get yellow urine indefinitely, take a b-complex every day or better yet twice a day. That is guaranteed to keep your urine very yellow for as long as you take the b-vitamin. And 25mg of methylb12 may indeed also cause the urine to be a little darker yellow as b12 is deep reed or magenta in color and strongly colors anything it is in if present in sufficient quantity. You are just seeing the natural result of taking things that inherently have a lot of color. It's just like eating fish, or garlic or onions or asparagus will cause odors in urine as a normal and natural consequence of their characteristics.

    Don't make up stories to scare yourself over something that happens 100% of the time by virtual of the b vitamins you are taking.

    Stopping the vitamins of course makes you feel worse and the yellow goes away. "You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with pepsodent" on in this case when you stop taking the yellow coloring agents. This is not added color in the vitamins but the actual color of them. It's proof that you are absorbing the vitamins.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kday,

    Persistant dark urine (not yellow from b-vitamins and not with a slight red tint making it towards orange or dark yellow, but a real darkness can be caused by blocked bile ducts such as with gallstones. In that case feces should be very light colored. I have seen a lot of discussion of foamy urine and not seen anybody come to any conclusions on it. I have had it come and go. Retaining water can be a real problem and can be side effects of some medications or other problems. Sometimes when that water is removed it has strange odors and other qualities to it. After years of retaining water (80 pounds excess at peak) I started dumping it after starting l-carnitine fumarate after starting adb12 and suddenly the water started pouring out. The first week during which I lost about 10 pounds it stank like rotting swamp vegetation and was foamy.

    It's good that you labs are all improving and the testosterone too. That is excellent news and should have you feeling a lot better. This healing process goes through a lot of stages as different parts heal at different rates. Id you are not taking adb12 and Metafolin you might find these helpful.
  7. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks verymuch to you all. I'm learning so much about my own condition. Docs here just not interested after basic (very basic) tests for a few infections.
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Kevin.

    Freddd has a good point about the B vitamins. Riboflavin (B2) in particular will make the urine kind of a bright fluorescent yellow color if taken in sufficient dosage. I don't know if that would describe the color you are seeing, though.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kday,

    In addition to color, various b-vitamins also lend their own unique aromas to the urine, including B12 and folate, b1 and inositol, and maybe some others.
  10. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    the colour does not always come from B Vitamins because Ive been taking the same dosage of B vitamins for more than a half year and the last months the colour canged to intense yellow. The colour changes if I do FIR Sauna to a slighter yellow (like normal) so Im sure ths is not from the B vitamins. The yellow colour comes from urochromes but it is not clear how they are exactly produced and what the yellow colour exactly means. But its sure that they can come from teh reakdown of Proteins and the Breakdown ob Bilirubin an intermediate Produkt of the the Haeme synthesis and the gall bladder colour comes also from bilirubin. So to make sure its nothing with the liver you can check for bilirubin in the blood if you are at the doctors the next time but as it goes away if you stop taking vitamins I think its not a liver problem, I would say the body is tiding up itself and maybe producing more haeme (haeme synthesis is often interrupted in CFS through inhibition by nitric oxide/peroxynitrite or lack of NADPH.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Joopiter,

    Quite right, there can be other things. A deficit of vitamin E will increase red cell fragility and cause more dead red cells faster. However, b-complex of the strengths that are typically taken here will cause yellow color and 25mg of sublinguals will get 5mg in blood which is certainly enough to darken the urine considerably. Without the other b components almost colorless urine will be tinted a light pinkish red at that 5mg level. It may even be lower mg visible if Metafolin isn't being taken. Glutathione will dramatically increase the amount of b12 being dumped in the urine as might other things.

    There might be some lower percentage things going on too, but the 100% bet is b-complex and b12 at the very least. After those are eliminated other things may become evident. Everything else more subtle will be hidden by these. However bile going into the urine shouldn't be ignored and makes the urine MUCH darker and a different color than b12 and b-complex.
  12. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    It's very clear that what I experience is unique.

    Once I get the methylation cycle going, I may not need anything for months, and I won't take any B vitamins. I feel much better, and my kidneys and liver struggle to keep up with dumping whatever dark crap it dumps. I retain water. I have to drink a lot of it to get it out. As soon as the cycle is interrupted, the urine lightens up like a normal human being, I urinate more frequently (like a normal person), and I feel like crap. I also wake up early morning hours with moderate-severe chest pain and an anxious feeling.

    The explanation is pretty simple, but I have yet to find a clear answer as to why I am different.

    It really does look like bile in the urine, but none ever detected, and blood levels are always fine.

    All these symptoms have correlated with huge improvements in all my hormones along with a high normal DHEA-S, but my gut feeling is this process is very hard on my body.
  13. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    I have similar experiences. Do you recognize a change of your stool-colour?? e.g. to orange or yellow? when your urine turns into a ligher yellow and you have to drink much. I also have these experiences, and Im sure the lighter urine colour does not come from the more drinking.
  14. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    Urinary frequency is the best it has been in months. I think all the liver support and break on the liver helped a lot.

    I am not finding the sweet spot with sublingual B12, and I still crave injections.

    I took 9 mg of MB12 and 4.8 mg of folate, and I did feel the best I felt in a long time. Then I got really tired and fell asleep for a few hours.

    I believe the 4.8 mg of folate was the difference. Going to try 7.2 mg tomorrow to see if a Deplin size dose helps even more.
  15. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    what kind of folate are you talking of? methylfolate (folapro)?? the tiredness is a sign of detox I guess. it often comes together with increase thirst.
  16. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    It's L-methylfolate-Metafolin. I just use Solgar from Vitamin Shoppe as it's a good price and convenient.

    Same as Deplin I think. Just need about 9 or 10 or so to have an equivalent dose. Cheaper than paying for Deplin out of pocket anyway and you can divide doses.

    It does make a huge difference, but so does methylB12 injections. I can enjoy going out without having too many bothersome symptoms. Sublingual B12 works now (not exactly sure why it didn't work before), but it's very weak in comparison to injections.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kday

    but it's very weak in comparison to injections

    What brand(s) and strength(s) of mb12 are you using?. I get better effect from combining Jarrow 5mg and Enzymatic 1mg and Country Life adb12 3mg. I have never had an injection qualitatively the equal of these though an occasional batch from the pharmacy came close. Even now with 10mg injections I take the combined sublinguals so they get carried in on the diffusion gradient and improve the quality of response. A larger dose and/or more time can bring it up to strength.
  18. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    I am taking Country Life methylcobalamin. I tried 24 mg, but right now I am at 9 mg as there is not much difference in the sublingual for me at higher dosage.

    And comparing sublingual and injection is like comparing Tylenol to Morphine in my opinion.

    I got my injections from College Pharmacy (25 mg/cc) and the potency seems excellent. I always told them to ship me it after a fresh batch. It induces a much bigger detox response as well. And for me, the detox response is very strange, yet very relieving. If I had a B12 shot, it would probably knock me out to sleep (in a very good way since my "normal" state excitotoxic). Sublingual is helping though, but anxiously waiting for those injections.

    I have actually never tried adB12. I am one that is known to fly by the seat of my pants, so I never really followed protocols as they didn't fit me.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kday,

    I happen to have extensive experience with morphine as I have been in pain management for 11 years. I take oral morphine normally. In the hospital I have received injected morphine. Injected morphine to oral morphine might be a more suitable comparison than APAP to morphine which is more like comparing cyanocbl/hycbl to methylb12/adb12. With injected morphine 100% goes into serum in 30 minutes IM. While oral morphine about 1/3 or so goes into serum and takes a little more than an hour to do that, so there is slower onset. I performed a series of sublingual versus injection tests with mb12. I also performed the 10 brands tests.

    What I found corresponds very well with the experience with morphine. By using urine colorimetry, in this case using subtractive color printing filters to turn the urine neutral gray, one can come very close, to within one "just noticeable difference (05 color density) to how much mb12 is absorbed into serum and then out in the urine which happens to everybody except those whose kidneys don't work.

    First in the 10 brands tests a group of 5 of us comparatively tested 10 different brands over a more than 1 year period doing A-B comparisons. Two brands were outstanding for qualitative, and maybe quantitative, characteristics in all 5 persons and 1 brand was a complete zero. The other 7 had mild activity.

    The injection series I had to do because of access and not many people ware willing to study their urine hundreds of times. I did a series of injections from 1mg to 25mg. Keeping the folate condition the same, the only variable was the size of the injections. Then a series of large dose sublinguals was done. The sublinguals had as much b12 showing up in the urine over the range 25-50mg corresponding to the coloration of the urine of injections ranging from 5mg to 12.5mg. The calculated absorption of of the sublinguals was approximately 15% at 45 minutes increasing to 25%+ at 120 minutes. Further these larger doses, in both injection and sublingual, had the same CNS/CSF penetrating qualities and affected my leading edge indicators, the central neuropathies affecting my feet, in the same way.

    An important consideration to keep in mind is that injectable mb12 varies on 2 axis'. The first is something the pharmacy and the user can do to keep it effective, minimize light exposure using opaque syringes, vials and safelight mixing. The other is beyond pharmacy control. Mb12 comes in crystals. It is clear that qualitative aspects of different batches of these crystals varies as much as the differences between brands, and in the same way. The more batches I have used the better this qualitative aspect gets filled in. I have been injecting mb12 for almost 7 years now. After 3 or 4 days of using an inferior mb12 injectable a single sublingual tablet will make a noticeable difference. After injecting highly effective mb12 for a week 50mg of the same sublingual will make no difference at all, and that also works the other way around. 3x10mg mb12 sc injections daily are fully equivalent in all respects 3x50mg sublingual 3+ hours total duration.

    Others have duplicated the short version of the 50mg sublingual compared to 10mg SC injection.

    Differences in methods will obtain different results. A 1 mg IM injection will attain the same serum levels for 30 minutes or so as a 10mg SC injection will attain for 8 hours or so. This can cause diffusion into the CNS that doesn't occur with a 5mg sublingual since the sublingual is spread out over some hours. For healing the CNS it appears that longer serum peak is superior in steady healing performance. Perhaps you are feeling that quick onset and penetration into the CSF/CNS if you are otherwise taking equivalent doses.


    I am taking Country Life methylcobalamin. I tried 24 mg, but right now I am at 9 mg as there is not much difference in the sublingual for me at higher dosage.

    Quite right, the adenosylb12 reaches equilibrium quickly and for the body, very little difference if any between 3mg and 24mg. It might pay to try a 51mg dose once to see if it provides a 1 notch increased experience as it penetrates the CNS/CSF. This only can happen for me, to be noticeable, about once each 2-3 weeks.

    For best qualitative results and CNS penetration I find I have to take both the high quality mb12 sublinguals, both 5 star brands with three metafolin orally and the sc 10mg injection 3x per day, and once a day 3x3mg adb12 with one of the injections along with the other sublinguals. Most injectable mb12 I have received is not as effective as the two 5 star brands, and they are different from each other. I tried for years to get away from the sublinguals because of the inconvenience and just don't have the results without them.

    You are very fortunate if you get high quality mb12 injectable every time. Mb12 broken down by light will cause acne type lesions, nervous system loosing functionality and generally an increase in symptoms that gets worse over time, whereas mb12 startup symptoms while they shift around end up improving (ie less numbness instead of more numbness in feet).

    There are many studies through the years with all sorts of cobalamins demonstrating the equivalence of oral versus injectable b12 if the dose takes the difference in absorption rate into account.

    Good luck.
  20. kday

    kday Senior Member

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    Methylation cycle has had to be supported since one beer on February 13. Before Feb 13, methylation cycle was continuous for many months.

    While I feel much, much better methylating, the same symptoms are continuing to plague me. I have been tested for hepatitis amongst other things and I have an ultrasound of my Liver/Kidneys tomorrow.

    I have to take lots of liver support crap so they function more properly. Enzymes jump up and down between normal and elevated, but the symptoms are more concerning than the enzymes. I hope we can figure out what the hell is causing this. I have ran into a couple other people with a very similar response, yet nobody has an answer.

    If I can just keep my methylation going without having to worry about the impact on my Liver, life would be so much easier. This dark, smelly urine and urine retention is getting real old. If there are no answers, I am going to just dump doctors and experiment with antiviral/antibiotic drugs on my own and order my own tests through directlabs. In my opinion, there is no way this could be just toxins being detoxed. It seems that I have a super toxin generator system built inside my body. If I don't properly methylate throughout the night, I wake up with clearer urine and my nervous system is cranked to 11 and I feel like I got hit by a truck. If detox is working right, I wake up with dark foamy urine, I feel fine. There is also significantly better sleep those nights. And if it's really dark, that means minimal symptoms throughout the day (I just might have a little trouble urinating).

    Sorry. I am frustrated.

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