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B12 is giving me PMS! Help?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by NilaJones, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    So i finally found a dose of Perque low enough that it doesn't feel like speed, after some experimentation. I am on day 2 of taking it, and I feel... well some of the ladies here will understand. And no, it is not that time of the month.

    My emotions are all over the place. Labile, I would say. And I feel like I want to climb out of my skin, throw a temper tantrum, and run screaming down the street. When I bruised my leg an hour ago, I flopped down on the bed and sobbed for about 20 seconds.

    Yes, I am taking folapro, and tons of potassium, and magnesium, and iron, and Thorne multi.

    Suggestions? It's true I am used to the artificially flattened affect of being sick, but this is more than that.
  2. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Is perque a brand of methyl b12? I'm not familiar with it. It sounds powerful! I've had emotions come up from taking b12. As you say, we are used to the flattened sensation of being sick, with our emotions being dulled. I've had methyl B12 give me the odd sensation of being both more calm and more anxious, just overall more emotion, where there is usually just a flatness. I don't know if that's what your having though. Is there some good feeling as well, or is it straight up anguish?
  3. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Perque is hydroxyB12. It's the one in Rich's simplified protocol. I didn't know where to start, so I started there.

    I think it's only strong in me :(. Rich recommended starting with one pill, but this reaction was to 1/36 of a pill.

    Well, the PMS episode lasted about 4 hours, and I feel pretty normal now. Normal sick, I mean.... I will see what happens when I take it tomorrow.
  4. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Wow, that is intense! I've never taken hydroxy. Better luck tomorrow!
  5. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Edegem, Belgium
    Sounds familiar, I have it with methylB12 though.
  6. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    NilaJones: So i finally found a dose of Perque low enough that it doesn't feel like speed, after some experimentation. I am on day 2 of taking it, and I feel... well some of the ladies here will understand. And no, it is not that time of the month.
    My emotions are all over the place. Labile, I would say. And I feel like I want to climb out of my skin, throw a temper tantrum, and run screaming down the street. When I bruised my leg an hour ago, I flopped down on the bed and sobbed for about 20 seconds. Sounds like it could be overmethylation.
    Yes, I am taking folapro, and tons of potassium, and magnesium, and iron, and Thorne multi.When I started to take hydroxy-B12, I noticed I had to cut back on some of the precursors to methylation that I had been taking previously.
    Precursors to methylation as per previous post: B6, Magnesium, Folate, B12, TMG, Zinc
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...thylation-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/
    From a website suggested above http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm
    "Over- Methylation: Many persons who suffer from anxiety and depression are over-methylated which results in excessive levels of dopamine, *norepinephrine* and serotonin."
    An excess of these neurotransmitters can definitely cause the symptoms that you are speaking about.
    For me: the main thing was *potassium,* and *magnesium* even though I am really low in them they seemed to overdrive the methylation process for me and put me into excess.
    Have you had your snp testing done? I suspect I am COMT++ (we'll see soon!), and have an excess of methyl groups. I tried methyl-B12, and methylfolate will limited success. But I had that super antsy feeling that you described until I cut back on the folinic acid (opened the capsule and split into 4 doses), found the least absorbable magnesium and cut tablet into 4 doses, and eliminated my Zinc, and Potassium supplements, as well as limit high potassium foods. I am now able to introduce some potassium foods back in (about 2-3 weeks in), and am considering trying Zinc again. I avoid B6 right now (as per Yasko CBS protocol as interferes with CBS activity).
    My general recommendation is really work through trial and error to wean yourself off of some of the precursors for now. If you have been taking Iron for awhile, consider weaning off for now. Take a holiday. Simplify, simplify, simplify until you have a more stable response. Experiment with taking just the hydroxyB12 by itself. No response, add in Folic Acid, whatever form your body likes most.... and so on. I personally would deal with the non-methyl donor supplements first, because of what might be a heightened neurotransmitter response there might be a COMT component.... but unless you know what your snps are, we are just engaging in educated guesswork.
    And most of all: don't panic. The fact that you are getting this kind of response means that you are on the right track. My hunch is that you just need to refine what supplements your body actually needs right now so it isn't sent into overdrive. As well the fact that you are having this response likely just means that you are encountering one of your blockages, and the more you simplify we can more easily identify what those blockages are. For example, when I tried the hydroxy B12, and folinic acid by themselves and then experiemented with adding just a tad of magnesium (as I experience +++muscle cramping) it was like BINGO, right combo, good energy. BUT, if I add in the mangenese at the same time, BOING! Overmethylated! Ha ha :)
    Best of luck,
    Star :)
  7. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Wow, Star, thank you so much for the detailed advice! I am definitely saving this post :).

    I don't know my snips, except for +/- on one methylation one. Just sent off my 23andme today, as a matter of fact.

    I have had the same reactions to B12 when taking it without any folate, magnesium, iron or potassium except for what's in my diet and multi. I don't currently take zinc or manganese.

    It does feel like a ton of neurotransmitters, though. Or sex hormones. Maybe my diet + multi have enough folate, etc., that I can overmethylate on small doses of B12 alone?

    After some deliberation, I tried the same dose of B12 again today rather than cut down. And, yeah, it feels the same. Yesterday I calmed down after about 4 hours, but then the feels came back after another 4 or so, slightly less intense. Maybe tomorrow I will try a lot less, or none? I'm open to suggestions from folks here!

    Despite the difficulties of testing, logically I do think I must need B12. I have eaten not-much meat in the past 30+ years, and my body adores folapro. So I am trying to figure out how to make it work.
  8. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Do you know which one exactly?


    What is the product exactly. I would love to take a look at the specs. Can you post a link to it?



    In my mind this "reaction," isn't really a bad thing. We just have to figure out where you are experiencing the block, and then work with your body at a low enough supplement level so it is not overwhelmed. Once you post info re: what exact B12 supp you are taking, then we can go from there.


    You would know it is related to sex hormones if your symptoms increase or fluctuation according to your cycle, and this happens routinely.

    Possibly, or you are experiencing a block elsewhere that prevents the methylation cycle from moving forward, and the B12 is just what tips the scale per se. Your problems with meat lends me to suspect a CBS mutation. I would recommend this. I know I had very limited success with attempting to supplement the methylation cycle until I dealt with CBS issues.
    See:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-success.23257/

    I would avoid for now. You have to figure out where the block is happening.

    What are your symptoms? Fatigue? I'm wondering how you responds to amino acid supplementation like Tyrosine. I'm not recommending this for you at this time, but if you have tried, your response would be useful information. How do you know it "adores folapro?" What did you experience to give you this impression?

    Star:)
  9. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    A1298Cis heterozygous.

    http://www.perque.com/products-page/digestion/perque-activated-b-12-guard-2/
    It's the one in Rich's last update of the symplified protocol, IIUC.

    I think it is the same at any time in my cycle, but I don't have a lot of data on that.

    Problem with meat? I don't have any that I am aware of. I just have been a vegetarian or mostly-veg for my adult life.


    See:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-success.23257/


    Ok.


    You mean when not taking anything? Feels like I have the flu, except no runny nose. Low fever, sore throat, sore muscles, constant nausea, weak and dizzy, need to stay in bed. Also some fairly severe memory problems. I remember very little from the past 3 years, and I do stuff like pour the cereal carefully onto the counter NEXT TO the bowl.

    I also have a familial problem with inflammation and pain in connective tissues, which I assume is unrelated as the onset was 25 years prior.

    My official diagnosis is HH6 encephalitis, but I started hanging out here bec the symptoms are similar. I have sky-high antibody level.

    No, I have not tried.

    Decrease in fatigue, ability to think more clearly (I can now understand posts on this forum, which I could not before). Symptoms return 48 hours after I stop or decrease dosage. Currently 1100 mg/day, in 4 doses.

    Thank you for your help!
  10. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Well this tells me a lot. Have you been able to look into Yasko's work?
    My hunch may have been right re: tyrosine/dopamine connection. It's funny. I was a vegetarian for many years as well. And my health did not improve until I ate meat. I had several experts tell me I needed to do so, and I fought it tooth & nail, as my vegetarianism was so much part of my self-identity. It is a sensitive subject for many, I am aware of this, and do not mean to minimize one's committment to vegetarianism. For me, I had never really been attracted to meat, & I believe that this was related to my CBS issues, and chronic buildup of ammonia with meat consumption (highly related to brain fog).
    A1298C can be related to BH4 issues (the production of which is essential for neurotransmitter production - like dopamine & serotonin - essential key players in motivation & the feeling of having energy). From Yasko: MTHFR A1298C mutations (if present) impair the second leg by disrupting the recycling and regeneration of BH4.... Keeping the ammonia levels under control is of paramount importance for overall health and wellness, especially for those with an MTHFR A1298C mutation, as any excess ammonia generated can drain stores of BH4.
    Ammonia production is handled by following CBS protocol.
    The third leg as Yasko describes it to BH4 production is gut health, and this becomes of paramount importance for those with known CBS mutations and MTHFR A1298C mutations.
    Ah, I like this one better:
    http://www.aor.ca/products-page/classic/hydroxy-12/
    I think you can get it from iherb if you can't buy locally. It doesn't have Magnesium in it. And it's a smaller amount. When I started I had to 1/4 this tablet, which would be 500mcg, and take only every other day. Don't assume that you have to take the B12 everyday (apple-a-day mentality that we are fed). Some people can only tolerate the B12s a few times per week at a tiny, tiny dose :)


    Ah, okay. I am not familiar with that diagnosis. Is it viral? The name suggests an inflammatory process which could explain your strong reactions to B12. From Yasko: There is a reciprocal
    relationship between methylation and inflammation, almost as if they
    were on a seesaw: increased inflammation will tend to decrease methylation and
    vice versa.
    If it's viral, is there an antiviral treatment for your condition? Have you tried an anti-inflammatory like Curcumin. There are also significant dietary contributants to chronic inflammation, and Yasko speaks about the relationship between viral infections and metal toxicity.

    Supports to Address Inflammation (from Yasko):
    Nettle
    Boswellia
    Curcumin (limited amounts for COMT V158M ++)
    Skull cap
    Chamomile
    Quercetin
    Petadolex (Butterbur)
    Cherry fruit extract
    General Inflammatory Pathway RNA
    HyperImmune RNA (limited amounts for COMT V158M ++)
    Cytokine Inflammatory Pathway RNA
    Advanced Joint Inflammatory Path. RNA
    Stress Foundation RNA
    Lung Support RNA
    Colostrum
    Kidney Inflammatory Pathway RNA

    Ah, okay. When you say Folopro are you referencing the Metagenics Folate (as L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate†)? This is quite a remarkable response that you have had. Any reason why you are taking hydroxy-B12 instead of trying the methyl-B12? Seems to me that you may need the methyl form, and your body is unable to deal with the non-methyl form. This could definitely account for some of your symptoms. I think peeps on here like the Jarrow methyl B12. It's quite possible that you might respond well to SAMe or methionine as well if you haven't tried, but one step @ a time.

    For mental clarity, I found that Acetyl-L Carnitine, really, really, helped me. It's also possible that you may be low in this especially as Carnitine is found naturally in red meat. I like the NOW foods brand :)

    Star:)
  11. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Bit by bit, as I feel well enough :).

    I have been eating meat pretty much every day for the past ten years or so. But I still have my vegetarian habits, and eat smaller amounts than most US people. It's unusual for me to eat a hamburger, for example -- I maybe eat one every couple of months (organic and local).

    I think I have a hair less fog with meat, but not enough of a difference that it's motivated me to eat more.

    Could you tell me what that is, and what CBS stands for? I hate to ask such a basic question :).

    I do feel that gut stuff is important for me. I eat kefir or yogurt daily, because it helps.

    I have been taking 55mcg and it seems like too much! Today is the third day.

    Yes. a viral infection of the brain, and the virus is HH6.

    Interesting. Folapro does help with my connective tissue inflammation.

    Yes, Valcyte. It costs $2,000.00 a month and I have no insurance. It also seems to make most people much sicker for the year course of treatment. I am trying other things first ;).

    I have tried a lot of herbs, tho not curcunin. I take a strong prescription anti-inflammatory daily. One that does not hurt my gut.

    Only because, when I was too ill to read much, I read Rich's simplified protocol and nothing else. This is what he recommended.

    Do people still like Jarrow? There is so much to catch up on, here. I thought they changed the formula to something bad?

    Thank you :). Does it have any effect on energy?

    I am so grateful to you for putting in the time to try and help me!
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I'm glad you already got your SNPs done at 23andme. We'll know more what to suggest when the results come back in about 6 weeks. In the meantime, you should lay off the B12.

    As an example, I have the CBS mutation. I could only tolerate 0.5mcg of methylcobalamin to start with (that's half of one mcg!). This was after doing the CBS protocol for several months. I've been able to work up to about 50mcg in a couple more months. I'm having many great benefits even though this is still quite a low dose.

    I'm using a liquid sublingual methylcobalamin, which makes it easy to dilute to very tiny doses. Yasko sells liquid hydroxy and adenosylcobalamin if you decide you want to try those. They're hard to find elsewhere.
  13. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Star, I was about to post a question regarding this. I was wondering if when you take the MB12 and/or MFolate and perhaps bypass some mutations and get the methylation cycle going again DO you become more sensitive to methyl groups in other supps and foods?
  14. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    sregan:
    Possibly. But I'm not sure that it is a direct/causal thing.
    From everything I heard those most sensitive to methyl groups are those with COMT mutations, which you have. I am sending my 23andme today! So I can be more useful after I have my results. I have suspected for awhile that I have COMT issues, possible +/- as well, but we'll see. What I know for sure is there was definite time when I needed to supplement with methyl donors in past, and then there was a clear time when I became more and more fatigue, and potentially agitated with methyl supplements. More recently, when I tried the methyl form of B12 and folate, I just noticed that I felt AWFUL, really heavy fatigue, and dulled cognitive abilities and labile emotions. When I tried the non-methyl versions of these, BINGO, my energy has been AMAZING :) I am so grateful to have found this community, because quite quickly I have been able to make immense progress.
    From Heartfixer:
    The downside of being COMT (+) is that you will have a lot of free methyl groups floating around, as you are not using them up breaking down dopamine. Thus if we need to give you other Methyl Cycle intermediates (such as methyl-B12 if you have MTR/MTRR issues), we risk ODing you with methyl groups. Too many methyl groups can lead to mood swings. Panic attacks and bi-polar mood disorder are seen with greater frequency in COMT (+) individuals; this makes sense. COMT (-) individuals, on the other hand, need and tolerate methyl groups.
    If I were you, I would do more research re: your COMT snps...

    Perhaps instead of seeing it as "becoming sensitive," it may be that we don't require the methyl agents anymore in form of supplements anyhow. As I'm becoming more stable, I'm started to notice that I was having problems with my melatonin at night (agitating), which is a methyl donor. Those with CBS issues, which I see you have as well, have to be careful with methyl supplementation because methyl supplements are sulphur compounds. Looks to me that with the combination of possible COMT, CBS, MTRR issues that methyl supplementation is going to be a balancing act for you...
    http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm
    All the best,
    Star:)
  15. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi there!
    Yes, until you see if you have CBS issues, I would not push the meat. Use your intuition & eat to tolerance. CBS is complicated. It is related to the inability to clear sulphur & ammonia, as well as many other compications that can lead to traffic jams in methylation cycle. Read on http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm under
    CBS: Cystathionine Beta Synthase[​IMG]


















    Good. This is telling. Gut is definitely playing a role for you. The use of yogurt and kefir to support gut function in my opinion is somewhat controversial. The issue is that you can't always control the amount or type of of beneficial bacteria that you are getting with fermented products in the same way you can with supplements. The issue with the
    supplements is that at least in my case it did take some experimentation to find the right supp and dosage.

    As has been suggested you may want to wait until you get your results back to pursue B12 supplementation due to the very strong reactions you have been having. However, if you are interested in trying some methylB12, I have an almost full bottle that I can send you that might work well. The product is BioFolate by AOR, and it may be avail for purchase on iherb for you if you can't buy locally. In it is 1mg of the 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate which I believe you have been taking with good success and 2.4 mcg of methylcobalamin. They are capsules so you can open them up & split in half if you want to try less B12 at once. As Calendonia suggested above, sometimes you have start really slow with B12 supp. I have heard this time and time again on this forum, especially when there is significant inflammation involved. Personal message me your address, and I can send it. It's of no use to me. I'm getting better and better each day on the non-methyl forms :)

    Ya I saw that too. When Methyl B12 I tried:
    http://www.sisu.com/sisu/products/product.jsp?category=500&sub=501&id=178
    I split the tablets into four.

    Re: Acetyl-L-Carnitine:
    In my experience, huge.

    Star :)
  16. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Hello :). Apologies for my delay in replying --- yesterday was swamped. Good stuff, but I am exhausted today.

  17. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Thank you :).

    0.5mcg...now that sounds like a dose I can handle ;).

    But I did think that about the 50mcg, too. Thing is, I am not sure my reactions are that much smaller to the smaller doses. It's hard to say, because of needing time between the trials for effects to wear off and general life stuff. Plus the reaction seems to be worse on the second day, but maybe a little better on the third...

    I realised this time around that the B!2 gives me a sore throat. I always have a bit of one anyway, so it took a while to identify the connection. Anyone else experience that?

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