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B12 injections - how regularly do people inject

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ottiebow, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Wow..that is a lot of B12..I wonder how old this cheney info is.. & I wonder what the value is.. I mean if you are in oxidative stress, doesn't most of that stuff get oxidised?
    I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is doing it and whether it's helping.
     
  2. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yeah, I injected into the thigh muscle a couple of times. Owee. Now I stick the buttocks, but I injecct Nexavir, gcmaf, b12 & B6..it's getting old!
     
  3. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    That sounds like a very snazzy system - they definitely don't have anything like that here! In Italy you just get the cheapest possible version of anything. But I'll look around to find a stronger concentration, that might let me use the teeny syringes.
    Ta!
    Athene
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ottiebow,

    YOu may never have any benefit with hydroxycobalamin.. Sublingual methylb12 and adenosylb12 of the right brands are 100 to 10,000 times more effective than hydroxycbl injections.

    I inject 10mg 3 times per day of methylb12 for my neurological problems. Hydroxcbl gives me acne and no benefit. Also I do SC injections with a 5/16 inch 31 gauge insulin syringe.
     
  5. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd - thats a lot of B12 - i have had terrible side effects from 500mcg once a day (excitotoxicity) and have had to switch to 250mcg every other day. Why do you think that is that one person can take so much and another so little?
    Justy.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Justy,

    For starters, I didn't just jump in at that. The ONLY reason I need that much is for the CNS damage I have. I started with 1000mcg sublingula which held for 45-120 minutes under lip or tongue absorbs at approximately 15-25% typical (10-33% extremes). So that works out to 150-250mcg injection equivelent.

    I was extremely deficient when I started. When I put that first Enzymatic Therapy methylb12 under my tongue I felt in in 5 minutes and had a heavy duty "rush" from 15 minutes after start until 90 minutes when the tablet was finished dissolving. At the end of that rush I had enough energy to climb a flight of stairs without resting a couple of times. A lifelong depression was lifting. My vision brightened 2 stops (4x brighter). My hearing ungarbled. My sense of taste started returning to normal. Multi sensory hallucinations stopped. I felt overflowing with energy for the first time in 30 or more years. In ten days by burning red tongue returned to normal. My burning bladder returned to normal. My neurology was wide awake and I felt in exquisite detail every ache and pain and neurological abnormality in my body.

    I choose not to interpret all that as "excitotoxicity" but rather a perceptual change caused by my neurology starting to work again. When one has a base level of 1% of normal 100 mcg makes a huge noticable difference. As 99% of b12 taken that way is out of the body in 24 hours, the body level and need crept up very slowly. After the second month, when I spent testing 10 other brands since the ENZY product was sold out all across the country, to identify another effective brand and I did (Jarrow) I resumed making progress after loosing almost all the ground I had gained. Since 1 month hadn't slowed down the rush I decide to see how many times in a day that would repeat. I kept a tablet under my tongue, one after another until another ceased to make any difference. That was at about 10mg the next month. The month after that I moved up to 5mg tablets and 25mg per day. Two tablets of the ENZY at a time was no more intense than 1 tablet until the differential startup effect started decreasing. Each day the "rush" decreased until about 10 days in I had reached a steady state. Three days after reaching a stready state all the perceptual effects of changes basically went away and it was all healing after that. I went through a shorter milder onset period when I added adenosylb12. Then again when I added l-carnitine fumarate which was actually more intense than the original mb12. Since that effect was essentially all mitochondrial as it is a key player in the krebs cycle, it was clear that from the beginning a major part of the perceptial differences was that my body was generating much more ATP. The burning muscles (felt like lactic acid burn) went away after the l-carnitine fumarate. My aerobic capacity doubled literally overnight with the first dose of the l-carnitine fumarate. I started building muscles again after 9 months on mb12 had not achieved that. My thigh muscles had atrophied down to the thickness of my thumb took 4 years to build back to the thighs of the professional skier I had been.

    I had some increase in energy with some mb12 converting to adb12 for the mitochondria right from the beginning, but only a fraction of what occurred with the adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate. For some reason TMG mellowed that out and put me on an even keel.

    Then I read the research on mb12 from Japan and their trials with several neurological diseases in doses of 50mg. I tried 50mg of Jarrow mb12. Suddenly I felt my CNS come back and my numb feet starting tingling and othe3r changes, much more subtle than the general reaction and not detectable until my body had reached equilibrium. I repeated that and found that I felt that every day with a single 50mg dose but 3-4 50mg doses allowen a CNS equilibrium and actually started healing my feet and givin me back position sense and feeling and balance. I can balance on 1 foot again after 10 years or more of not being able to. I no longer tripped over my toesthat dragged with footdrop. 50mg of Dibencozide also reenergized the neurons in my brain. It was great.

    Working from the 50mg dose I then started titrating the injections until they match both effectiveness and urine color. That was how I established 7.5mg-12.5mg as equivalent to the 50mg sublingual dose and the rate of absorbtion form sublingual. I worked up from 1x7.5 mg a day and it was "new" all over agin each day. Equilibrium was reached at 4x7.5mg ot 3x10mg SC injections daily. This whole titration process lasted 3 years. I have taken the injections all the way up to 180mg/day as 3x60mg. I will write that up elsewhere. With the gade of injectable mb12 I had the larger doses did not help.

    Methylb12 has been demonstrated in studies to have dose related effictiveness (not linear). The first 250mcg a day injected SC has the MOST effect. Maximum healing effect appears to be reached around 3mg SC injected of mb12. There appears to be no further change until somewhere between 6mg-7.5mg SC when the mb12 reaches the threshold for CNS penetration.

    FMS, CFS, Alzheimers, Parkinson's, Supranuclear palsy, ALS, MS and some others all have been shown in research to have low Cerebral Spinal Fluid cobalamin levels regardless of body level. They also have various combinartions of elevated HCY and/or MMA verifying which cobalamin(s) are extremely low The Japanese research established the dose of about 50mg a day needed to penetrate the CNS at levels sufficient for functional changes while being taken. The studies were only 3-6 months and not the 5 years needed to establish the nurological healing as some other doctors have noted is needed. SO when I had that first 50mg methylb12 dose my CNS woke up but good and my nerves started functiong again. I have Subacute combined degeneration and that is really all that's left. I used to have FMS and CFS with most all the symptoms included in the 200+ I had. Once maximum effectiveness is reached more mb12/adb12 do basically nothing until one gets up to large CNS level doses and then the balance between mb12:adb12 can affect mood and personality.


    Why do you think that is that one person can take so much and another so little?

    INTERPRETATION. I interpretted the effects you are calling "excitotoxicity" as roadsigns to healing. I was right and healed. After 9 months I was able to start rehab exercise and discontinue (taper) a lot of drugs; Compazine suppositories (daily nausea and vomiing), Albuterol and theophaline (asthma), antihistamines (seasonal and household allergies and multiple chemical sensitivities), Provigil (sleep disorders, narcolepsy), Dilantin (neurological pain and out of control spasms), Valium (muscle spasms), Morphine (-40%, reduced pain), Ibuprofen 2400mg/day (widespread inflammatory pain). Only two meds I take were unchanged; Levothyroxin and Testosterone. Also, balance with Metafolin and adb12. Also, if you were to take a single sublingual dose of 10mg of adb12 every couple of weeks charging up the body mitochoindria you may find that you can comfortably take a lot more mb12. Much of the startup appears to be the mitochondria starting up and that gets dragged out slowly when only mb12 is taken. Be careful. The need for potassium can increase dramatically when you actually succeed in getting healing going (getting methylation going) or when muscles can start growing if they need the adb12/l-carnitine fumarate. So needing more potassium, perhaps only 3 days after starting mb12 and/or adb12 and/or Metafolin and/or l-carnitine fumarate and/or SAM-e and/or zinc and/or Vit D, is another signpost, a MAJOR signpost.

    Something I want to mention is that the energized and sensory brightening and all that startup is a characteristic that virtually everybody who actually heals appears to have to go through. As far as I know there is no way to get back to normal without experiencing the change from deep in a hole back to normal. Those who seek to minimize startup don't ever appear to heal or drag it out for years and years. Those that seek to maximize startup effects heal most rapidly.
     
  7. harrycat

    harrycat

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    Hi Freddd, welcome back it is great to have your input again :)

    In your opinion are there any dangers in taking higher levels of b12? I'm also on the 500mcg mb12 SC injection prescribed by my doctor and curious about increasing it. The 3mg you say for a good level of healing - do you have a reference for this? I also take some sublingual hb12, ab12 and mb12.

    Secondly is there any formula for how much folate you pair with the b12?

    Thanks for your time.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Harrycat,

    Let's look at doses and method of injection. An IM injection is essentially 100% absorbed in 30 minutes. A subcutaneous injection in the fat, which is what I do, takes about 24 hours to absorb completely but is about 90% absorbed in 6-10 hours. A 1mg IM injection probably has as high a peak as a 10mg SC injection BUT that is reduced by 50% each 30 minutes or so for each 30 minutes of the next 6-10 hours. Based on urine colorimetry half of the 10mg SC appears to be absornbed in thye first 3 hours and diminsihing from there. A 1mg IM injection produces an estimated serum peak of 200,000 pg/ml at 30 minutes. With 30mg a day injected in 3 or 4 equal sized injections the estimated steadystate minimum serum level is 200,000 pg/ml with a peak of over 300,000pg/ml. It appears to require just about that 200,000 pg/ml to penetrate the CNS. So with 1 mg IM then the CNS might be penetrated for as much as 30 minutes following an injection which does not make a noticable differnce in those who can notice. With 30mg/day SC there is 24 hr/day CNS penetration.


    So let's look at the effect on body healing. The larger the SC injection, the longer the serum peak and the better the penetration of body tissues. A 3mg SC injection is very similar to three 5mg tablets held 120 minutes each over a 6 hour period. Twice as much makes no noticable difference in the body.

    The first 1mg makes the most difference, perhaps 75% of maximum. The second 1mg moves that up to about 95%. The third 1mg moves it to approximately 100%. These are the results of me and several people I know locally who are also hypersensitive and a number of people out in cyberland. There are no references.

    Several others I know are doing the CNS injections. These appear effective in the range of as low as 6mg to 7.5mg for theshold. I have done 4x7.5mg, 3x10mg effectively with 24 hour effectiveness. I did not have success with 2x15mg though at least one person does. I have done some trial injection series all the way up to 3x60mg daily. Generally 3x60mg is no more effective than 3x10mg, with the quality of the mb12 being more important than the quantity once there is enough (30mg/day in 2-4 doses). Absorbtion speed does vary somewhat from person to person.

    I titrate the METAFOLIN by effect. I have a flag waving signal that lets me know within 2 days when I am going into folate deficiency, angular cheilitis. I find that if I take 1600mcg with every meal and 3200mcg with each of 3 injections that I am usually not in deficiency. I worked up to this trying to overcome the paradoxical folate deficiency from vegetable food source folate (folinic acid). This complicating factor has prevented me from seeing any relationship betweeen amounts of b12 and Metafolin if there is one. That the prescription forms of metafolin come in 5mg, 7.5mg and 15mg doses and maybe some other similar values indicates where their trials indicated suitable response for depression, homocysteine reduction and the like. Metanx is Metafolin combined with mb12 and p5p. Less may do for a lot of people, especially if they don't have paradoxical folate deficiency which might me a lot more common than one might suspect.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I would like to address the question of concentration of various forms of b12 in solution. I have experience preparing both mb12 and adb12. I also have information from my pharmacist and others. When I was first arranging my b12 with a local compounding pharmacy I requested 25mg/ml as per Dr Neubrander. After a couple of preps they told me that they were having way too much filtered out in the 0.2 micron filter for me to actually be getting the specified dose. We went down to 20mg/ml and it all cleared the 0.2 micron filter. In my own preparation, I mix it at 20mg/ml. I use a magnetic stirrer with an opaque vessel and 100 deg water bath. Without the water bath the room temp stirring produced what seemed like a good solution but I had massive micronucleation and it turned into a gel in the vial in the refrigerator that had to be warmed to be used. With a 2 hour stir in the water bath I get complete dissolution and no sludge or gel formation when cooled. The pharmacy said that some batches of crystal were very difficult to get to go into solution at 20mg/ml. Another source said that he has had batches of crystal that dissolves well at 100mg/ml and others that require warm water to dissolve at all. Even if it passes through a 0.2 micron filter there can still be massive micronucleation that causes a sludge or worse to form when cooled to 35 deg for storage.
     
  10. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd, thanks for the very detailed reply to my query - im not able to read through it all in one go, will have to go over it a few times. I wonder if you are suggesting that excitotoxicity doesnt exist? it was explained to me as a build up of glutamate, causing the symptoms. I understand your point about perception, but my symptoms where not at all the same as yours - my symptoms are of extreme agitation - as if i had drank 10 espresso's and eaten a LOT of sugar. I dint actually notice it until i had taken 500mcg a day (sub cut) for 10 days - up until that point i noticed no real difference. Alongside the bad side effects i did feel great as well for a couple of days. Now ive gone back down to every other day, half dose i dont have the bad effects or much of the good. The side effects were literally unbearable and on the 3rd day i had to taker a valium - which totally sorted me out.
    Justy
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Justy,

    as if i had drank 10 espresso's and eaten a LOT of sugar.

    Funny you should mention that. To become functional in social situations 9 or more years ago I used to have 3 quad espresso shot cappacinos with sugar. My onset of mb12 the first time and for a several months until I titrated to equilibrium was on intensity alone, very much like a goodly dose of LSD, say about 1000mcg, one hell of a rush.

    are of extreme agitation

    Agitation is a RESPONSE. Mb12 was highly excitatory because it is turning the nervous system on. If your nervous system is carrying 1% of "healthy normal signal" the volume of the receivers has to be turned way up and that causes a vast increase in noise in which the signal is almost lost. If it goes up to 5% with a dose of mb12, this is a massive increase. In the sensory area, 1/2 of a doubling of intensity is a Just Noticable Difference. Let's use taste of sugar for example. If you have one cup of coffee and you can taste the effect of 1 teaspoon of sugar, the difference between 1 and 1.33 tsbs would be barely noticable. If instead it goes up to 5 tsbs it is likely way too sweet. From 5 tsbs to 6 tsbs would not be perveivable When one is very deficienct going up from 1% to 5% is a massive change. We perceive things based on percentage change over base. To have the same change from 5% it would have to go to 25%. However, that same difference isn't available again so when it gors from 25%$ tp 50% it is noticable but only somewhat stimulating. When it goes from 1% to 50% it knocks your socks off.

    Perceived differences are what our nervous system see. We see something moving that might be quite invisible if holding still. We can read a newspaper by the light of a candle or full direct sunlight. If it changes suddenly from candle to sun it is temporarily blinding but not actually blinding unless one looks directly into the sun.

    500mcg a day (sub cut) for 10 days - up until that point i noticed no real difference

    Most likely that was how long it took for enough mb12 to penetrate the CNS to cause perceptual changes.

    Now ive gone back down to every other day, half dose i dont have the bad effects or much of the good

    Exactly. You are not getting enough b12 into the CNS for it to start restoring function.

    I wonder if you are suggesting that excitotoxicity doesnt exist

    Not at all. I am saying that calling perceptual changes caused by mb12 excitotoxicity is a misaplication of that word. Here is the question for you. How does one get from 1% to 100% without going through the adaptation process?

    If you were to take the approach of escalating doses I would make several predictions. One of them is that increasing the dose does NOT cause a linear increase in an excitatory response. Approximately each doubling of dose will cause perhaps a 25% increase of effects and that falls off dramatically as the effect approaches the limit. A 10mg dose (injected) won't be perceptually different from approximately a 3mg injection. The difference is how much is retained, about 1% of the dose each day. If you injected 10mg a day, I would predict that within 2-4 weeks it would have no excitatory effect at all.

    Dribbling it in maximizes the excitatory effect as to how intense and duration. At 250-50 mcg a day the onset excitatory mode will last indefinitely. At 10mg a day it will start to falloff in a matter of days and end in a matter of weeks. You are taking a dose that is at probably 80% of maximum effect and will remain there for months and months becasue it isn't a large enough dose to actually bring tissue levels all the way back up. If you were to take a 10mg Source Naturals adb12 you can get rid of the mitochondrial portion of the excitatory response (perhaps half of the total) in a week or less. Adb12 really only does 1 thing, processes fats for energy. More than there are receptor sites for in the mitochondria are quickly elliminated. Equalibrium of adb12 can be reached in days. That's what makes testing different brands so difficult; one has to starve ones self of adb12 for a month to see any change from it at all whereas mb12 symptoms return in no more than about 3 days withourt.

    However, your hypersensitivity could be put to good use here. You could do comparative brand testing. You will be able to tell the differnce between various zero start to 5 star mb12s. After your body is no longer starved for mb12 it will lose the hypersensitivity and the only way you will be able to tell the difference is how fast symptoms go away or come back. Unless you starve yoursef into severe deficiency you will never again be hypersensitive as you are now. I and 4 other hypersensitives did all the brand testing. We all agreed 100% becasue we all had the same stuff happening in the same way. How we each interpreted them was different. If I had quit because of my hypersensitive reactions I would be dead now and we would not be having this discussion. You might find that a 3 star brand won't have very much effect and that you can take saturation doses from the beginning. Then when you switch to the 5 star to maximize healing you will only feel a differential effect, not the major onset effects. I have helped hundreds of people work through this. I have yet to see anybody who doesn't loose this onset excitatory effect when they reach equilibrium/saturation if they do it in this way. Superior brand and NOW Foods brand of mb12 are both 2-3 star mb12 or were at the time of my original testing. If you were to do a 10 brand test series it could be very useful for people because the brands may have changed in 8.5 years.

    MB12 appears excitatory because it increases neurological signals. It is not TOXIC so it is not excitotoxicity.

    methylcobalamin glutamate use this as a search string in google scholar
    Methylb12 PROTECTS against glutamate toxicity

    Protective effects of a vitamin B12 analog, methylcobalamin, against glutamate cytotoxicity in cultured cortical neurons[DOC] from yimg.comA Akaike, Y Tamura, Y Sato - European journal of pharmacology, 1993 - Elsevier
    Abstract The effects of methylcobalamin, a vitamin B 12 analog, on glutamate-induced
    neurotoxicity were examined using cultured rat cortical neurons. Cell viability was markedly
    reduced by a brief exposure to glutamate followed by incubation with glutamate-free ...
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299993909258

    The effects of methylcobalamin, a vitamin B12 analog, on glutamate-induced neurotoxicity were examined using cultured rat cortical neurons. Cell viability was markedly reduced by a brief exposure to glutamate followed by incubation with glutamate-free medium for 1 h. Glutamate cytotoxicity was prevented when the cultures were maintained in methylcobalamin-containing medium. Glutamate cytotoxicity was also prevented by chronic exposure to S-adenosylmethionine, which is formed in the metabolic pathway of methylcobalamin. Chronic exposure to methylcobalamin and S-adenosylmethionine also inhibited the cytotoxicity induced by N-methyl-D-aspartate or sodium nitroprusside that releases nitric oxide. In cultures maintained in a standard medium, glutamate cytotoxicity was not affected by adding methylcobalamin to the glutamate-containing medium. In contrast, acute exposure to MK-801, a NMDA receptor antagonist, prevented glutamate cytotoxicity. These results indicate that chronic exposure to methylcobalamin protects cortical neurons against NMDA receptor-mediated glutamate cytotoxicity.

    Clinical trials of ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin in ALS].Y Izumi - Brain and nerve= Shinkei kenky? no shinpo, 2007 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
    ... There is no effective drug therapy for ALS, although riluzole has been shown to prolong life in
    sufferers, without tracheostomy. A vitamin B12 analog, methylcobalamin, has a protective effect
    on cultured cortical neurons against glutamate-induced cytotoxicity. ...
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17969354


    Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a neurodegenerative disorder affecting both upper and lower motor neurons. Weakness may begin in the legs, hands, proximal arms, or pharynx. The course is relentless and progressive without remissions, relapses, or even stable plateaus. There is no effective drug therapy for ALS, although riluzole has been shown to prolong life in sufferers, without tracheostomy. A vitamin B12 analog, methylcobalamin, has a protective effect on cultured cortical neurons against glutamate-induced cytotoxicity. We have shown the ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin (25 mg/day i.m.) slows down the progressive reduction of the CMAP (compound muscle action potential) amplitudes in ALS in the short term (4 weeks). The latencies of SSR (sympathetic skin response) were shorter after treatment (50 mg/day i.v., 2 weeks). In the long-term effect of methylcobalamin (50 mg/day i.m., twice a week), the survival time (or the period to become respirator-bound) was significantly longer in the treated group than in the untreated. Larger-scale randomized double blind trial was started in Japan in order to evaluate the long-term efficacy and the safety of ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin for sporadic or familial cases of ALS.
     

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