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B12 induced crash? Electrolyte Imbalance?

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Hi,

I was on Fred's protocol for 7 months till Nov' 2012. So I have a fair idea about B12. My health is better now and I haven't taken B12 for 4 months or so. 3 days back I took 1000 mcg of Enzymatic Therapy MB12. I thought I'd take it every week or so,you know, as a maintenance dose, so that I'm always at the upper limit of the flawed serum B12 test.

Anyways,my concern is that after I took that B12, I've been experiencing significant loss in energy(both physical and mental),muscle pain and light spasms,no refreshing sleep and it feels that I can't even get out of bed. Now, as per my previous knowledge, it seems like potassium is needed, as this could be B12 induced hypokalemia. I haven't got a test done,so it's all speculation. It's quite hot and humid here and I sweat A LOT.

So, I took B12 3 days back, and have taken about 600 mg of potassium and some magnesium after I got these symptoms. Should I keep taking potassium? Or could it be another issue?

Thanks.

Regards,
arx.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi arx. I can only tell you my experience w/ potassium. I've also been on the protocol fully for 5 months. I feel fortunate that I've had so few hiccups (once got onto overmethylation w/ too much B12, then did the same w/ excess mfolate). First, I would be lost w/o being able to self-test for supplements. I strongly suggest you check out youtube muscle testing, or self-testing. Even if you don't trust it initially, it will grow w/ you.

I've been taking K+ for a number of years. For 3-4 years I've been using K+ gluconate powder. When I get muscle cramps and spasms it's usually low mg. Someone who seemed to know posted that right sided cramps are low mg, left sided are potassium. That sounds a bit too simplistic to me, given what I know about my own idiosyncracies.

Freddd posted about hypokalemia:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...kalemia-and-methylfolate-insufficiency.22968/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/getting-back-to-balance.24134/ July 2013 Fred re role of Bvitamins

I take a minimum of 3g K+ 2xday. That's my baseline, has been for some time, pre-Freddd, pre-GAPS diet. Now I've been detoxxing metals and adding in some Yasko RNA formulas, and my need has skyrocketed. It didn't help that I was inadvertently getting too much salt, but the need persisted beyond the salt. My symptoms are different from yours. My heart pounds, not necessarily racing, but strong, a sense of breathlessness, heartburn. I'd begun using bicarb for my occasional heartburn, but then got it that this was K+, and I've always responded to it. This led me, just a few weeks ago, after all these years, to get it that at my worst, my primary symptoms were hypokalemia: feeling faint, unable to feel confident to walk even 1 block, fearing I'd fall: both balance and light-headedness. My GP never tested or had any response to these worrying things. Now that I understand how critical it is for me, I'm intending to get a medi-alert badge.

Especially hot, humid, and sweating. Take some more. Make an electrolyte drink w/ salt, K+, lemon or lime, just enough to be tasty, not medicinal, and drink through the day. You might try mg and K+ both, or alternate after an hour or 2, to see what works. Are you taking the other 2 Deadlock components: AdenoB12, L Carnitine Fumarate? I found that each of the 4 increased my healing. OK, to close I'll add another post from Freddd. Best to you, ahmo

Following the newer version of the titration pattern then the steps look like this.

1 - Titrate AdoCbl/MeCbl combo to approximately 100mcg absorbed where healing can “turn on” with 200-800mcg of l-methylfolate. 200mcg will not be enough and will immediately (3 days) give “detox” symptoms composed of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency. If startup does not occur by the time one gets to 1000mcg combined absorbed cobalamins, titrate LCF

2- Identify low potassium symptoms and titrate potassium.

3 - Identify donut hole folate insufficiency and titrate with 4x-8x dose size of l-methylfolate several times a day until those symptoms are strongly diminishing.

4 - titrate AdoCbl and MeCbl to perhaps a nominal sublingual dose of 1000mcg each, watching for low potassium, donut hole folate insufficiency and identify any other new symptoms, and what isn’t being taken care of

5 - Finish titrating LCF to 500-1000mg for now, then identify what isn’t healing or not enough. Try SAM-e, TMG, D- ribose, Vit D, Zinc, B-vits and various things as needed to improve performance. It isn’t a try 1 thing and then another. It is add SAM-e and then TMG and various other things. It is usually combinations that yield results. SAM-e need titration over several months. LCF could take six months to titrate up to the 500mg dose and try 1000mg to see if it makes a difference. Don’t rush things. Think things through. Look at the symptoms and effective supplements for them to get ideas. Most people will fall into one of several groups. Almost everybody here has appears to have complicating factors and more severe things going on, with me it is SACD which is basically long term damage from prolonged deficiency. Hormones get all messed up and will often change during these titrations.. There isn’t a system of the body that is immune to damage from these deficiencies. As there are at least 600 reactions affected by the methylation and ATP the variations are huge in number.

6 - Titrate MeCbl separately until it makes no difference.

7 - Adjust potassium and l-methylfolate as needed by response to symptoms

8 - Titrate AdoCbl separately until maximum amount that makes a difference.

9 - Adjust LCF

10 - Adjust various factors.


This description is an approximate description of the process. There is no fixed specific ratio I can even begin to suggest between MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate. It is all by titration AND VERY CUSTOM FOR EACH PERSON.

Watch out for unusual things like needing huge amounts of potassium beyond perhaps 3000mg or so. The range of Metafolin is very large and based on what appears to be genetic factors and influence of other folate antagonist medications etc.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Thanks ahmo. I am NOT on Fred's protocol. Also,I have read those threads. Thanks for reminding me again. :)

My question is that could ONE MB12 sublingual cause such a massive change? When I was on his protocol I was taking 2.5 g of Potassium and some Magnesium. But this was just one ET sublingual. Total crash. Don't know what to make of it?!!
 

juniemarie

Senior Member
Messages
383
Location
Albuquerque
arx may I ask why you stopped Freds protocol? Was it causing you problems? From reading the posts here about peoples reaction to b12 its seems extremely common for people to get crashes after starting on b12 on even less amounts
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Thanks ahmo. I am NOT on Fred's protocol. Also,I have read those threads. Thanks for reminding me again. :)

My question is that could ONE MB12 sublingual cause such a massive change? When I was on his protocol I was taking 2.5 g of Potassium and some Magnesium. But this was just one ET sublingual. Total crash. Don't know what to make of it?!!

OK, so my long-winded explanation missed the point: you're NOT on the protocol. I don't have an answer to your question re WHY the crash. Hope you clarify this soon. cheers, ahmo
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Hi,

I was on Fred's protocol for 7 months till Nov' 2012. So I have a fair idea about B12. My health is better now and I haven't taken B12 for 4 months or so. 3 days back I took 1000 mcg of Enzymatic Therapy MB12. I thought I'd take it every week or so,you know, as a maintenance dose, so that I'm always at the upper limit of the flawed serum B12 test.

Anyways,my concern is that after I took that B12, I've been experiencing significant loss in energy(both physical and mental),muscle pain and light spasms,no refreshing sleep and it feels that I can't even get out of bed. Now, as per my previous knowledge, it seems like potassium is needed, as this could be B12 induced hypokalemia. I haven't got a test done,so it's all speculation. It's quite hot and humid here and I sweat A LOT.

So, I took B12 3 days back, and have taken about 600 mg of potassium and some magnesium after I got these symptoms. Should I keep taking potassium? Or could it be another issue?

I just went through a rough period after stopping SMP and it took me two months to figure it out. I was/am dealing with the MethylTrap. I started taking small doses of MB12 only (no folate) which helped significantly for a while. I started having other symptoms that are relieved by a small amount of mfolate every 2-3 days. I need more Mb12 than folate I believe because I have 2 MTRR+/+ mutations. Depending on your genetics you might not need to supplement one or the other or one as much as the other. For me taking equal doses of MFolate and MB12 seems to have depleted me of MB12. Taking my current dose of only MB12 seems to leave me needing Mfolate. My trick will be to find the correct balance (which will be much more MB12 than folate) which I'm optimistic about.

Another big help for me was taking my minerals. I found I needed a lot more Magnesium when I was MB12 deficient. I was having a HELL of a time getting myself out of bed. Leaving the minerals by the bedside helped so I could just take them, roll over and wait. In about 15 mins or so I usually felt good enough to get up. Small dose of pregnenolone helped also in the morning.

Anyway, you can find a more detailed explanation of what is working for me in my blog.
 

Mij

Messages
2,353
sregan my experience is similar to what you are experiencing. I need moire mb12. I am currently experimenting with different doses. I'm not sure I even need Metafolin at this point. I feel better without it.

I have increased my magnesium intake significantly and this has been very helpful.
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Hi Arx;

It could be that old 'start up' feeling, again. Enzymatic Therapy is strong.

I'm not getting the start up anymore, even with monster doses of B12.

I wonder if part of the start up is from excess folate being used.
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
arx may I ask why you stopped Freds protocol? Was it causing you problems? From reading the posts here about peoples reaction to b12 its seems extremely common for people to get crashes after starting on b12 on even less amounts

I didn't have the patience to do it anymore. I was only getting worse,not better. Worse to more worse..
Till MB12 and ADB12 it was bearable. But with carnitine, extreme physical and mental agitation ensued.
If I have to do it again, I'd go through the 23andMe route.
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Hi Arx;

It could be that old 'start up' feeling, again. Enzymatic Therapy is strong.

I'm not getting the start up anymore, even with monster doses of B12.

I wonder if part of the start up is from excess folate being used.


Possibly. I hope it goes away. I took B12 after months.
Yesterday evening I took some potassium,magnesium,banana, and some proteins and electrolyte sources. It made me a bit better. So I hope it passes.
Nice to see you here after a long time,Crux! :)
 

arx

Senior Member
Messages
532
Another big help for me was taking my minerals. I found I needed a lot more Magnesium when I was MB12 deficient. I was having a HELL of a time getting myself out of bed. Leaving the minerals by the bedside helped so I could just take them, roll over and wait. In about 15 mins or so I usually felt good enough to get up. Small dose of pregnenolone helped also in the morning.

Anyway, you can find a more detailed explanation of what is working for me in my blog.

Yeah, I realized yesterday that a lot of minerals were required! I hope it works out in some days. Link me to your blog?
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Hi arx;
Good to see you too!
I don't remember if you tried hydroxocobalamin, for many, it's not overstimulating.
I think it's a good idea to do the 23andme, it can help to guide. Then you can take a dip into the morass of genetics!:confused:
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Hi arx;
Good to see you too!
I don't remember if you tried hydroxocobalamin, for many, it's not overstimulating.
I think it's a good idea to do the 23andme, it can help to guide. Then you can take a dip into the morass of genetics!:confused:

Crux, I'm a beginner at this. I've read about the startup a few times. Would you mind briefly explaining the startup and what it feels like?
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Crux, I'm a beginner at this. I've read about the startup a few times. Would you mind briefly explaining the startup and what it feels like?

Hi sregan;
Since the term 'startup', is Freddd's invention, describing some of the feelings one may have when beginning the protocol, I'll defer to this link: http://forums.bettermedicine.com/showthread.php/62327-active-b12-basics

I've had some of these feelings many times from reducing my B12 dose, then getting deficiency symptoms, then increasing again.

I'll feel increased mental energy, even anxiety for a time. My sleep will be delayed by an hour or two. (Increased physical energy is slow to happen, so I don't include it in my own startup effects.)

Muscle pain, cramping, seem to be from the need for potassium and magnesium, as you've described.

I've read of some people feeling tired from taking B12, so I think it could be an initial reaction. Some people get headaches after an injection, or high dosage.