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B12+F.Acid for depression, worked for 1 week, felt bad after that. What went wrong ?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Marcus2013, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Hi there!

    After reading success stories about folic acid + b12 for depression, I decided to try it for my self.

    I started experimenting with the following :
    - 800 mcg of folic acid (folacin (folic acid) tablets, brand Solgar)
    - 500 mcg of b12 (cyanocobalamin capsules, brand Solgar)

    I was taking them on an empty stomach in the morning.

    They worked very well for one week. I was in a better mood and feeling more energetic and corageous, rather than being apathic and scared-of-life kinda attitude.

    After one week or so of using it, I started to feel very tired, I think it felt something like an anemia, although I never had one.

    After looking on the internet, I found Iron is related with folic acid and b12. Maybe the first week I was using my iron reserves and once I depleted them, I started to feel the anemia state. Could that be ? What do you think ? Or maybe magnesium or anyother related mineral on my body ?

    What are your thoughts on that ? Would you recommend trying again with MTHFA+Methylcobalamin ? Maybe there was a problem with methylation ...

    Thanks in advance.
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Marcus,

    You have been taking an inactive form of folate which will "grab" the receptors and block the absorption of active folate.

    You were also taking an inactive form of B12 and you may not be able to convert it to an active form--also, only about 2% of swallowed B12 is able to be used.

    These could be part of the problem.

    So yes, why not try an active folate at very low dose to start with, (there are several brands), and either methyl B12 (sublingual) or hydroxy B12 (sublingual). Hydrox needs one more conversion to become active, but most are able to do that conversion. And the body will convert hydrox into both methyl and adeno at the ratio it needs.

    Also, when taking these supps it is important to supplement potassium too or you could have problems.

    You might want to read here: http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...e-mecfs-glutathione-and-the-methylation-cycle

    Sushi
    Lotus97, justy and Marcus2013 like this.
  3. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Hi Sushi, Thank you very much for your prompt reply!

    Is it ok if I try only the active folate + hydroxyb12 + postassium ? I mean, don't I need all the other supplements listed on the Simplified Treatment of Dr. Konynenburg ?

    I don't know (yet) if I have a problem with my methilation cycle, or if I have my glutathione/methionine depleted ... I just want to try about folate+b12 because I have read that they are very low in almost all cases of depression. (I responded well to SSRI's in the past, I just don't want to use them anymore.)

    Also, please, could you give more information about which kind of potassium and how much should I take with the active folate + hydrob12 ?

    Thanks again.

    Regards,
    Marcus
  4. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Marcus2013 were taking potassium too? Once methylation starts up again you have to increase your potassium intake. If you don't you feel like crap. There are threads around that talk about the need for potassium. Both Fred and Rich talk about it too. Good luck and I hope you're feeling better soon.
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  5. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Phred, thanks for the tip. Sushi mentioned it also. I have ordered Potassium Citrate and will use it along MTHF+B12+Lecithin.

    It's strange though that Rich Van Konynenburg isn't mentioning Potassium on his Simplified Method. Why is that ? If it is so important ...

    Thanks again.
  6. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I would be careful with the K (potassium). Everybody is different, and some people do much better with supplementing K than others. I ended up having palpitations from taking just 500 mg/day of the K citrate. I found the best way to get K was to drink coconut water, which is very high in K, and gave me no adverse effects.

    I also would be careful about how much B12 and active folate you take. In my case, I do well with small doses taken only 2-3 times/week. If I take it regularly in "normal" doses, I feel awful, probably from detoxing too quickly... which makes my neurotransmitters go berserk, and makes me depressed, anxious, even more sleepless. Several times I also got a racing pulse and shortness of breath.

    There are people here who have been able to take just the teeniest smidges of these supps. I know one woman who sliced her pills into 64 pieces and took just 1/64th (literally a crumb) per day. More than that, and she had adverse effects.

    So keep this all in mind when you proceed with finding the right dose for yourself. And good luck with it. There's lots of people here with lots of experience to share with you about this.
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  7. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Hi dreambirdie, thank you very much for the information. I'll take it into account.

    I am still wondering why Konyensburg doesn't mention potassium on his simplified protocol if it's so important.

    Now speaking in general terms, not strictly related to b12+folates :

    In my case (I don't know if this is normal) but normally the more energy I have, the more anxious I am. It's somehow directly related in my case.

    I have yet to find a supplementation (or combination) that gives me proper ammounts of energy while feeling relaxed. For me, it's like trying to find the Dorado.

    There's just so many (infinite) combinations of minerals/vits/aminos/etc. and it's related forms plus the ammounts of each that it's extremely desperating.

    But we'll keep trying, won't we ?

    Best wishes
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  8. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Marcus2013

    Hi Marcus;
    Rich did write about increased potassium need in his 'revised simplified methylation protocol', and other places, like here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-283712

    If you think you may need more iron, it may be a good idea to have ferritin levels checked. It can be a tricky one.

    It seems like you're describing a combination of depression, fatigue, along with anxiety?

    I agree that the active forms of B12 and Folate may be much more effective. The amounts one may need are really hard to find, as you know.

    For depression and fatigue, my best results have been from taking active B12 and folate.
    For anxiety, my favorites are potassium and zinc. ( I take large amounts of potassium and smaller amounts of zinc.) Many people have had their best results from taking magnesium. (for anxiety, insomnia, and fatigue)

    If you've felt better from SSRI's, have you tried tryptophan or 5htp ? I've taken them in the past and found them helpful.
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  9. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Hi Crux,

    Thank you very much for your reply. I can see Rich recommends potassium only with very high doses of b12+folates. I'll have the potassium pills nearby just in case.

    Yes I am having depression, fatigue and anxiety. They are all combined and feedback each other. They're loopbacks.

    I've tried magnesium and it's helpful, but it leaves me in a kind of "dizzy" state. In large doses (600mg x day, magnesium citrate SOLGAR) it also produces me loose stools. Nevertheless it's a good mineral and I'll have to experiment further with it. I'm just going to try the b12+folates.

    I have also ordered some zinc sulphate to make the zinc taste test and a bottle of zinc picolinate. I suspect I am zinc deficient because I think (I'm not sure) I can't smell as good as others. Also I am having lots of grey hair recently. Plus some vertical ridges on my fingernails. I'll see when the zinc taste test arrives ...

    5-htp helps indeed! I use it sometimes but it looses it's effect after a while. Plus I am concerned about it's heart risks. Plus it normally needs also l-tyrosine to be added to work sinergistically. I want to go deeper into the roots of the problem : Why isn't enough serotonine/DA/NA being created ? That's why I am looking at the vitamin/mineral level instead of the free form aminoacid.

    If it turns out that I am defficient on b12+folate+zinc I'll start investigating WHY in the first place I am deficient in those nutrients. Leaky gut ? Food allergies ? Candida ? We'll see ... I wish I knew a doctor in Barcelona (Spain) to help me with this but I don't know anyone yet. I don't know where to look for it either.

    Thanks again!

    Best Wishes
  10. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Marcus2013

    Hi Marcus;
    I agree that tracing back to the basics is the best idea. I found that my depression was B12 deficiency related. There was a time I was taking 300 mg doses of 5htp daily for depression,anxiety, and migraines. It worked symtomatically, but, deficiency didn't seem to be cause.

    I understand the difficulty in finding a knowledgeable doctor, aside from the MD's I saw, I went to 2 naturopaths and 1 homeopath. None were able to help at all, not at all. I remember asking an ND about B12, and he only suggested small dosages, even though he noticed my MCV, MCH, etc. were high. ( He was also a nurse.)

    If you can find any practitioner who understands B12 deficiency, I think that would be a good way to go.
    ( I'm now basically treating myself, and consulting with docs for tests.)

    I'm going to mention that proportions of dosages can be critical. For instance, I find I need alot more B12, and much less of the folate and some other B's. ( Although I still take 250 mgs. niacinamide, nightly. It's good for
    anxiety, and sleep.)

    It's true that the gut is a source for many of our health problems, but mine didn't begin to heal until I tackled the B12 def. ( My problem looks to be genetic.) I've tried many ways to improve gut function, fermented foods, probiotics, herbs, so on. They have helped, but since adding zinc, the gut is much better.

    With zinc, though, I believe that too much can cause more problems, so I'm interested in the taste test as well. ( Haven't tried it yet, but I should, OK, I will.)
    Some of the zinc deficiency symptoms listed may not necessarily apply to everyone. Loss of taste and smell are commonly listed, as well as ridges on nails, and early grey hair. Personally, I've found these symptoms apply more to my B12 deficiency.

    I think you have made great strides here, even without a practitioner's help. But I understand that another opinion is valuable.

    Best Wishes to You too!
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  11. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I recently had a chat with a woman who has done a lot of reading and research about magnesium. She had issues with palpitations, muscle twitching and insomnia.Magnesium cured her of all three. She has found that the most absorbable form of magnesium is magnesium glycinate. Other forms do not work as well. Also, she said it's really important to know you calcium/magnesium ration, because too much calcium will "crowd out" the magnesium, and make it less absorbable.

    She told me about the EXATEST for minerals--which actually tests tissue and is a much better test than blood. http://www.exatest.com/
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  12. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Crux,

    Very interesting! That confirms my suspects that taking 5-htp (or anyother antidepressant), while it might work, it's in reality masking a deeper deficiency of vits/mins.

    I hope my problem is "only" that I can't absorv b12+folates and not anything worst like mercury poisoning or a complete malfunctioning body chemistry or very bad candida or something. I can't wait for the MTHF to arrive!

    Can I please ask you to share with me your b12+folate numbers ? How much of each x day ? It will help me to make a wider picture.

    I'll post any relevant feedback to the forums.

    Best,
    Marcus
  13. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Marcus;

    I'm in an odd place with B12/folate dosage now. Recently, I increased methylcobalamin to 15 mgs daily, and methlyfolate to 3mgs. daily. I developed migraines and other pain. It turned out that I was taking far too much methylfolate. I stopped the folate for ~2wks., and the pain stopped. I'm going to have to figure out this problem. ( testing is a good idea.)

    I'm still taking the 15 mg. MB12 daily, and no folate. In recent years, I was averaging 5mg MB12 daily, and 400-600 mcg. folate daily.

    I've realized I needed more B12, (don't know why yet), but I also need much less folate, ( don't know how much).

    The variance for individual needs is wide here, as Dreambirdie writes, some people only tolerate crumbs, and others need daily injections and sublinguals.

    I hope you have an easier time with finding an appropriate dosage!
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  14. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Thanks for the info!

    15mgs of B12 daily. Wow. That seems a lot. Although I've read about therapies using 27mgs a day. Are you taking it orally or injected ?

    In case you are interested, Dr. Brownstein, an holistic MD for whom I have great respect, has a whole book on Vitamin B12. I don't own the book so I don't know if it's good or bad. I'm just mentioning it to you in case it helps.

    Best,
    Marcus
  15. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Crux, I am thinking ... Maybe you got used to B12 and your body demands more and more ? Like a tolerance effect.

    Do you think that is possible ? That possibility scared me.
  16. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Marcus;
    I think in my case, there are some possibilities, such as, I needed more anyway, ( some symptoms remained), Jarrow's brand mb12 became less potent, and, I'm guided by fear. It may be that I really only need 10 or so mgs., and that I'm taking this much because I'm very afraid of regressing to the pain adled person I was 5 yrs. ago.

    When many of us noticed the change in the jarrow brand, I began to have a return of neuropathy, vertigo, OI, fatigue, depression, etc. It has taken these 5 mnths. to get back to where I was. Nerves are slow to heal.

    I doubt that one can develop a tolerance, though I have worried about it too. I think it's a good idea to maintain health as best as possible to support B12 metabolism.

    I do worry that the brands I take will become unavailable or less potent. I worry about having access to good injectables if I need them in the future. ( This discussion of worries reminds me of another B12 def. symptom - paranoia. I had that too, 5yrs. ago.)

    So, in reality, I believe we're in pretty good shape.
    There are people here, who are astonishingly sensitive and aware, and who will alert us if there is something amiss. I hoping to become more alert, to contribute.
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Recently, after stopping methylation supplements for a bit I started to get depressed. I don't believe that stopping methylation caused the depression, however. The first time I stopped methylation I was not depressed at all. However, I do think they can be helpful because since I've started methylation again last week I sometimes do feel a mood boost when I take the supps. I echo what the other people in this thread said about starting at a low dose and gradually increasing if necessary. It's true that some people need a higher dose, but if you don't then you're going to be in a world of trouble if you take too much.
    Marcus2013 likes this.
  18. Marcus2013

    Marcus2013

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    Why do you say I could get into a world of trouble if I take too much ??
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    You might want to check out this thread. Although the thread is about methylcobalamin, the same thing can happen with too much methylfolate.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-causes-tachycardia-why.18010/
    That thread is mostly about low potassium which is the most serious side effect, but I posted about some other common effects of overmethylation here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...xicity-type-sypmtoms.18904/page-4#post-331008

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