B1 induced deficiency

[Mary]

Hi @dannybex - I posted the above right before you did your second post. I completely agree about thiamine being essential for glucose metabolism and for regulation of blood sugar. They use bentofiamine and thiamine to help prevent diabetes-related neuropathy etc. and diabetics tend to be deficient in thiamine.

That's the not the issue I'm questioning. What I'm questioning is, does potassium gluconate contain sugar and affect blood sugar levels, and from what I can find, it doesn't appear to do that, despite the name "gluconate".

 

[telochian]

I take a lot of potassium gluconate and have for several years and it has not affected my blood sugar levels.

Forgive me if my lack of scientific knowledge is on display on this one, but does potassium gluconate need to influence blood sugar levels to deplete thiamine, is it definitively a reaction to higher blood sugar or some other interaction?

 

[Mary]

Hi @telochian - I agree, my thiamine is probably on the low side, I react so strongly to a relatively low dose. I still question whether potassium gluconate (or any form of potassium), however, depletes thiamine. I can't find any reference to potassium gluconate containing sugar (despite the name) or raising blood sugar etc. You can see the articles I linked above.

It's possible that your high doses of potassium got other things out of balance, particularly electrolytes like magnesium and phosphorus. wish we could just run lab work at home so we weren't flying in the dark so much!

 

[dannybex]

Hi @dannybex - I posted the above right before you did your second post. I completely agree about thiamine being essential for glucose metabolism and for regulation of blood sugar. They use bentofiamine and thiamine to help prevent diabetes-related neuropathy etc. and diabetics tend to be deficient in thiamine.

That's the not the issue I'm questioning. What I'm questioning is, does potassium gluconate contain sugar and affect blood sugar levels, and from what I can find, it doesn't appear to do that, despite the name "gluconate".

I don't think it does.

 

[Mary]

Forgive me if my lack of scientific knowledge is on display on this one, but does potassium gluconate need to influence blood sugar levels to deplete thiamine, is it definitively a reaction to higher blood sugar or some other interaction?

I might have missed something, but I can't find anywhere that it says that potassium in any form depletes thiamine. I did read that if thiamine is deficient in wet beriberi and you give potassium without adding thiamine, it can cause heart damage. But the potassium is not depleting the thiamine, it's already depleted. From what I read it says that in order to avoid this, you need to add in both thiamine and potassium. The danger comes when only one is supplemented in wet beriberi, a severe form of thiamine deficiency.

 

[telochian]

I guess the question is whether it's possible that potassium gluconate, while not affecting blood sugar, "fools" whatever mechanism glucose uses to deplete thaimine into thinking you've just ingested glucose and therefore causes thiamine depletion. Something to do with the "gluconate bond".

 

[telochian]

It's possible that your high doses of potassium got other things out of balance, particularly electrolytes like magnesium and phosphorus. wish we could just run lab work at home so we weren't flying in the dark so much!

Not sure, but the reality is that I have seen vast improvements with no change whatsoever to magnesium, sodium, calcium and phosphorus supplementation.

All I have done is take benfo and switch to potassium chloride.

I don't think you have to stop taking potassium gluconate, just give it as much time as possible from your b1 dose, see if that helps.

 

[Mary]

@telochian - you could be right. I guess the main thing is you are doing well with the benfotiamine and potassium chloride. That's really good to hear. I have taken benfo, and it's stronger (or hits me stronger) than plain B1, both help with energy but neither has stopped my PEM.

I hope you continue to do well ----

 

[telochian]

@telochian - you could be right. I guess the main thing is you are doing well with the benfotiamine and potassium chloride. That's really good to hear. I have taken benfo, and it's stronger (or hits me stronger) than plain B1, both help with energy but neither has stopped my PEM.

I hope you continue to do well ----

Cheers, you too. Keep us posted.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Mary , my hypothesis about how potassium affects blood sugar is as follows

taking too much Mfolate will convert to inactive folate causing insulin resistance (AND/OR SEVERELY DEPLETE B1 DISTURBING INSULIN ABSORPTION). Potassium quickly reverts insulin resistance and can cause hypoglycemia / "pre-acidosis" in some people (I had that). Magnesium and sodium bicarbonate baths or foot baths alleviate acidosis symptoms (breathlessness, agitation, low body temperature)

I would assume that potassium chloride would be worse in case of acidosis than gluconate (I don't know if or how gluconate relates with blood sugar) but apparantly it hasn't been the case for @telochian

Additionally too much potassium can accelerate B1 metabolism using up available B1 which disrupts insulin absorption - first there will be increased insulin sensitivity, then decreased when the person runs out of available B1.

There is a discussion about the interactions of folate and thiamine linked in my sig

Any kind of potassium supps, Mag Glycinate, Taurine cause me hypoglycemia. I think B-Alanine too, but haven't tried it long enough yet.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Gondwanaland - Thank you for your detailed reply!

I started to reply and kept coming up with more questions, so will leave this for tomorrow when I can devote more mental energy to it.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Merry Christmas to you too!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Must add vit A to the list of supps that give me hypoglycemia

 

[telochian]

@Mary , my hypothesis about how potassium affects blood sugar is as follows

taking too much Mfolate will convert to inactive folate causing insulin resistance (AND/OR SEVERELY DEPLETE B1 DISTURBING INSULIN ABSORPTION). Potassium quickly reverts insulin resistance and can cause hypoglycemia / "pre-acidosis" in some people (I had that). Magnesium and sodium bicarbonate baths or foot baths alleviate acidosis symptoms (breathlessness, agitation, low body temperature)

I would assume that potassium chloride would be worse in case of acidosis than gluconate (I don't know if or how gluconate relates with blood sugar) but apparantly it hasn't been the case for @telochian

Additionally too much potassium can accelerate B1 metabolism using up available B1 which disrupts insulin absorption - first there will be increased insulin sensitivity, then decreased when the person runs out of available B1.

There is a discussion about the interactions of folate and thiamine linked in my sig

Any kind of potassium supps, Mag Glycinate, Taurine cause me hypoglycemia. I think B-Alanine too, but haven't tried it long enough yet.

Your definitely onto something here, I have had hypoglycemic issues since I was very young (can remember having hypo as young as 7). I'm currently undergoing some testing on my endocrine system and will chime in if anything becomes obvious with regards to b1 and potassium etc.

I've never been overweight, not even close, I've always been sporty and active, even when I had to force myself outside for lack of energy. I guess I never thought I could have problems with blood sugar levels. Seems like a pretty obvious thing to me now though looking back and fits with benfo improving my symptoms. It looks more and more likely that my insulin levels are too high in response to glucose and thus sweet foods and anything else that lowers my blood sugar levels really tanks my energy. I had a severe hypo reaction to grape seed extract, ALA and pine bark extract. Of course, if potassium can also cause hypoglycemia it would fit with the symptoms I have been having.

So, prone to hypoglycemia, taking methylation supps which tank potassium, taking potassium causes further hypoglycemia.........world of hurt.

Thanks again @Gondwanaland this may be the connection I needed to move forward and if my logic is screwy or makes sense to anyone else, please let me know.

 

[Gondwanaland]

does potassium gluconate contain sugar and affect blood sugar levels, and from what I can find, it doesn't appear to do that, despite the name "gluconate".

Gluconic acid, gluconate salts, and gluconate esters occur widely in nature because such species arise from the oxidation of glucose.

You should not use this medication if you have kidney failure, a urinary tract infection, uncontrolled diabetes, a peptic ulcer in your stomach, Addison's disease, severe burns or other tissue injury, if you are dehydrated, if you take certain diuretics (water pills), or if you have high levels of potassium in your blood (hyperkalemia).

 

[Mary]

Hi @Gondwanaland - I googled "diabetes potassium" and found links to diabetes-induced kidney damage and potassium. I don't think the issue with "uncontrolled diabetes" is potassium gluconate per se, but, rather, diabetes-induced kidney damage. My 89-year-old neighbor has had stage 4 kidney disease for over 10 years - somehow she has managed to avoid dialysis, although she had a shunt placed in her arm over 10 years ago in anticipation of dialysis. However, because of the fragile state of her kidneys, extra potassium is a no-no because her kidneys cannot properly regular her potassium levels.

This article talks about low potassium levels being a risk factor for diabetes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3197792/

I still don't think potassium gluconate causes blood sugar problems, though it is very true that people with severe diabetes can have kidney problems, which can give rise to problems with potassium.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Excellent, @Mary , everything you said is perfectly right. Thanks for the link! Kidney damage is an advanced case which is very frequently diagnosed almost too late.

Potassium gluconate makes me feel extremely uncomfortable though, and I still have to find out exactly why. The nephrologist I saw last year told me to see an urologist

My point is that when we wake up in the middle of the night with low potassium symptoms, hypoglycemia / hyperinsulinemia might be at play:

http://doctorkatend.com/what-really-causes-waking-in-the-middle-of-the-night/

http://doctorkatend.com/have-you-been-waking-in-the-middle-of-the-night-since-menopause/

We don't really know how we maintain our blood sugar levels until we have an insulin assay done... Blood sugar might be fine at expense of high insulin...

DH and I haven't had the insulin assay yet though. However, we had so many symptoms associated with insulin resistance which went overlooked by several specialists for years...

DH even went thru surgery for decompression of an inflamed ulnar nerve, and had numbness and tingling at the little fingers, plus excruciating sciatica... The orthopedist who performed the ulnar nerve surgery recommended HyB12 shots and confessed he didn't know why they worked. But eventually they stopped working, and likewise MB12 would work for short periods of time only... In fact, the B vitamins do a lot of things, and have a main role in improving insulin sensitivity and carbohydrate metabolism...

Now we finally pinpointed that foods high in Molybdenum are problematic for DH because they seem to lower Vanadium for him, so we compensate it with black pepper... It has been working wonderfully Even better than with vitamins

A few years back during his worst times he had a sudden proliferation of skin tags, and just now we realized all those symptoms were due to insulin resistance... I have had different symptoms of insulin resistance as well, like the waking up in the middle of the night like described in the links above, and skin peeling (excess proliferation of epthelial cells left undiagnosed by several dermatologists and endos). Yet, neither of us had ever had a blood glucose result above 90 That can be so misleadiing

It would be interesting to find out how many among us here have insulin resistance... Its prevalence is of 75% in the population according to the research with insulin assays. Many of us like me draw blood so many times during the year and it is just incredible that we have never had this test done.

I like the collective effort we make here to help one another with what we find out... Insulin resistance can manifest itself thru different symptoms in different people (incl. POTS, OI etc), and it is worthwhile investigating... Since I realized it was an issue and looked for ways of addressing it, DH and I are happier now to have reduced our symptom and supplement lists .

 

[Mary]

Potassium gluconate makes me feel extremely uncomfortable though, and I still have to find out exactly why. The nephrologist I saw last year told me to see an urologist

My point is that when we wake up in the middle of the night with low potassium symptoms, hypoglycemia / hyperinsulinemia might be at play:

Hi Izzy - when you say potassium gluconate makes you feel extremely uncomfortable, are you talking about a physical feeling you get while taking it, or an emotional reaction to taking something with "gluconate" in the name?

FWIW, when I first started taking potassium, I was taking potassium citrate, and within a matter of days noticed it was leading to a bladder infection, and then I looked it up and found that it could indeed irritate the bladder, so that's when I switched to potassium gluconate and have been taking it ever since without any problems. And also drinking V8 which is high in potassium chloride.

That is interesting about the middle of the night awakening. Low potassium doesn't cause me to wake up in the middle of the night, although sometimes I do take potassium then. It is possible that my blood sugar drops at 1:30 or 2:00 a.m. (when I wake up). I don't feel hungry then, though, and just take a bunch of l-theanine products and niacin and also lorazepam (which I am going to work on getting off of, very soon!) and eventually go back to sleep.

I am very careful about my diet and sugar especially as my blood sugar runs borderline high. I've been careful for years and years. Unfortunately, I can't exercise due to CFS. (feel doomed sometimes! ) But I don't have extra belly fat and I think that's because of my very strict diet.

I know you said before your DH had a sugar problem which of course would cause or contribute to insulin resistance, but I'm glad you are getting things sorted out and reducing symptoms!

I like the collective effort we make here to help one another with what we find out...

Absolutely!

And I am back to experimenting with a low dose of benfotiamine, and am adding in brewers yeast, hoping to get the proper proportions of the various Bs, and also am taking a different kind of calcium supplement which has manganese, which I am low in, and am watching to see how all of this works together!

 

[picante]

Just found this with a search for "gluconate metabolism". No idea whether this sheds light on the question of whether the gluconate part of potassium gluconate uses up thiamine. Somebody with more biochemistry, please give an opinion. I'm taking this stuff, too.

The metabolic fate of bicarbonate precursors

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi Izzy - when you say potassium gluconate makes you feel extremely uncomfortable, are you talking about a physical feeling you get while taking it, or an emotional reaction to taking something with "gluconate" in the name?

Physically weird - ureter discomfort with no cramp relief

It is possible that my blood sugar drops at 1:30 or 2:00 a.m. (when I wake up). I don't feel hungry then, though,

I never feel hungry when I wake up in the middle of the night... Yet adding starch to my dinner prevents me from waking up...

especially as my blood sugar runs borderline high

In that case I strongly suggest you to watch the video!

I know you said before your DH had a sugar problem which of course would cause or contribute to insulin resistance, but I'm glad you are getting things sorted out and reducing symptoms!

Finding this paper and making him to read it finally convinced him the sugar he loves is doing him harm Sure enough we are both victims of the metabolic syndrome epidemic!

Just found this with a search for "gluconate metabolism". No idea whether this sheds light on the question of whether the gluconate part of potassium gluconate uses up thiamine. Somebody with more biochemistry, please give an opinion. I'm taking this stuff, too.

It looks like it is promptly converted into glucose and will demand action from the B vits responsible for carbohydrate metabolism. Next step is pyruvate - see how pyruvate/pyruvic acid sits at the intersection of ALL B vitamins
I wonder how much of the potassium improves insulin sensitivity and how much of the gluconate raises blood sugar - how they both balance each other out