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B-Complex without Folic Acid

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I'm now wondering if I'm sensitive to folic acid. Been not feeling much on the protocol this time around. Been taking 1/8 Jarrow glass bottle MCbl and 1/8 Folapro. But have been taking a Jarrow multi an hour or so before which contains folic acid (http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Multi-1-to-3-with-Lutein-Iron-Free-100-Easy-Solv-Tablets/245)

    The B12 is Mcbl and only 16.66 mcg per tablet and 133 mcg of folic acid per tablet.

    Yesterday I didn't take the multi at all and was very wiped out this morning. I could have slept all day I think. I got to work and took about 2.5 mg sublingual pregnenolone and 2x my 99mg potassium chelate and felt much better within 10 minutes. I wish I had taken them a little further apart so I could know which one (assuming only 1 helped) helped me the most. I knew I was having brain fog so I took the preg...then occured to take the K.
     
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If you are able to convert folinic acid to methylfolate (and most people can) then it would contribute to overmethylation depending on your dose.
     
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  3. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    At the moment I am not taking any folate because my period started and with serotonin and estrogen tanking, a migraine, exhaustion, etc., it was making things go totally haywire. I think I'm going to give it a couple of days and then perhaps it will make sense to try the folinic childrens multi alone, first, to see how it goes, then see what happens with adding even less the <25 mcg methylfolate again.
     
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  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I hope you didn't choose that children's multi based solely on my testimony. It's true that sometimes I did feel good after taking it, but many other times I didn't feel anything. If you've already bought it, I hope it works out for you and I'd recommend taking it sublingually if you aren't too grossed out by it. That same company has some adult multis that you might want to consider unless you already purchased the children's one.

    Are you taking more folinic acid than just what's in the multi? I'd recommend getting up to 200 mcg of folinic before adding methylfolate. Although most people can convert folinic acid into methylfolate (which is the type of folate needed for methylation), that's not the reason Rich has folinic acid in his protocol. Folinic acid is used for creating nucleotides which make DNA and RNA for new cells and ATP. I think one of the main reasons Rich recommended the Neurological Health Formula was because of the nucleotides in the ingredients. Folinic also helps protect against glutamate which can cause excitotoxicity (especially in the early stages of methylation).
    ===================================================================​
    Folinic acid is helpful for a couple of reasons. One is that it is very versatile, in that it can be converted to other forms of folate. Normally, folates are needed to make nucleotides, but the folate metabolism is dysfunctional in ME/CFS because of the partial block of methionine synthase and the methyl trap, which drains folate from the cells when this reaction is partially blocked. One of the main reasons for including folinic acid in the protocol is to help with the production of nucleotides until the folate metabolism has been restored. The nucleotides are important for making new DNA and RNA for new cells, and also for making ATP.

    Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin. Excitotoxicity is a problem in CFS, and it is often exacerbated when methylation cycle treatment is entered upon. A lot of people experience it when they start this protocol. It's due to too much glutamate in the synapses of the neurons in the brain. The glutamate is supposed to be pumped out and converted to glutamine by the astrocytes, and sent back to the neurons for re-use, but this takes ATP, and when glutathione is low, the mitochondria do not produce ATP as fast as normal. When this protocol is started, I suspect that glutathione initially drops even more, and that is what causes the excitotoxicity. Various things have been recommended by Amy Yasko to counter this, including GABA, theanine, magnesium, Valerian root, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone cream, and taurine.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  5. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    If folinic can lower glutamate, does methylfolate also? Or is this unique to folinic? Are there unique benefits to folinic that methlfolate does not provide (or via a diff mechanism, etc). Rich makes a sensible case for it above, thanks.

    The children's multi is useful to me because it has such a small amount of folinic, in the event that I have a problem with that also. If it's okay and it makes sense to bring it up to 200, I can get something else that has a higher amount. Someone else posted a "bouncing off the walls with folinic" thread (here) that suggests that its not as benign in terms of start-up effects as folic acid is (which has no side effects at all since we've all been consuming it in our food, etc for half of our lives). Granted the folinic "bouncing off the walls" was with 800 mcg, but because I'm so ridiculously sensitive to everything, I have to be careful and start small with anything that might trigger things for me.

    Its unfortunate that I have so little time to do proper research, between working my jobs and trying to live a slightly normal life when there's a window of good health, it leaves huge gaps in knowledge from never being able to finish things. I've read parts of Rich's stuff, but not all, parts of Yasko, etc. That's the catch-22 is when you are well enough to hold down a job, but barely, and then you are sliding along half understanding everything. When things get really bad, everything goes on hold except researching what the heck is going on, and that's where real research progress happens for me . . .
     
  6. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    Freddd, how do you determine how much of each of the individual B vitamins you need? If you get some kind of reaction or a period of no effectiveness how do you know whether that comes from too much of something or not enough? Or whether something else is missing that halts the entire process?
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    In the quote from Rich, he says that the reason folinic helps with glutamate is that it's polyglutamated. I don't know what that means, but I assume that folinic acid is what's needed for that function otherwise Rich would have just had methylfolate in the protocol.

    The person in that "bouncing off the walls" thread thought the extra energy was a good thing, but I recommend going slowly because there's a good possibility you might burn out after a couple of weeks or months. When I made a partial recovery over the last few years, one of the biggest things that helped was limiting activities. I've had two consecutive crashes since the summer so now things are especially difficult. There's at least a dozen other things I'm doing for my health though. Although I'm convinced that methylation is an important piece of the puzzle, I don't think it's the only thing. In both Rich's and Freddd's protocol they recommend many supplements that aren't necessary for methylation. Sometimes people in the methylation forums can get tunnel vision and expect methylation to solve all of their health problems. For some it might make a huge difference, but others need to address their underlying health issues.

    As far as the general population goes, I'm not sure if most people are sensitive to folinic acid or methylfolate either. I've read a lot of customers on iHerb and it seems that most people don't have an adverse reaction to either forms of folate. Folinic acid and methylfolate do occur naturally in foods although dietary folate is processed differently than supplemental folate. I do tend to be sensitive to methylfolate though which is why I'm not taking any methylfolate and very little folinic acid until my health improves. I don't know why I'm sensitive. Maybe I am deficient in methylfolate, but I know taking it now would make my health worse. I get a lot of folate from my food so hopefully I'm processing it ok. I wonder if I had done methylation last year during my recovery if I would have tolerated it better.
     
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  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think many of the functions of b vitamins are too subtle to notice. Also, sometimes it's the combination of b vitamins plus other supplements such as some b vitamins' role in the Krebs Cycle so you don't really know what's doing what. It is important to take all of the b vitamins including biotin, choline, and inositol since b vitamins are important for so many functions in the body. Vitamins A, B, C, D, E, and K along with the basic minerals should be part of the foundation of everyone's health plan. Vitamins and minerals alone might not be enough to make a noticeable difference, but they are definitely an important part of a more comprehensive strategy. Both Rich and Freddd's protocol include many vitamins and minerals. I don't think methylation or other treatments will work as well if a person is deficient in basic vitamins and minerals.
     
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Victronix
    I just want to say that I'm not sure that information about folinic acid helping with excitotoxicity is correct. I just checked and Rich only said it once and it was back in 2010. Since then, Rich has talked about glutamate induced excitoxicity in relation to methylation many times (including strategies on how to deal with excitotoxicity which I posted above), but he never mentions folinic acid which is strange since it's in his protocol. I asked dbkita about it in another thread, so hopefully he'll respond so we can clear it up. The rest of the information I posted about folinic acid does appear to be correct howevever. And also the rest of the information on excitotoxicity. I'd actually recommend checking out that thread to learn more about folinic acid because dbkita has posted a lot of good information about folinic acid and how it's related to various SNPs.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...1-of-cfs-patients-plus-biomarker.21745/page-4
     
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  10. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Thanks for the ongoing research -- the info in the other thread was really helpful. I tried the Children's multi and its pretty awful tasting! I haven't had any effects from it (but forgot and took C with it also), and don't really expect to, so I am thinking of going ahead and ordering something with a larger amount of folinic since I'm starting to notice that my mouth is often a little sore, which could be folate insufficiency. I saw this one that you already listed that sounds about right for me -- http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/mini-multi.html So that would be only 200 per capsule.
     
  11. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Okay . . . amazingly, I *am* have effects from just ONE of these children's multis with 25 mcg folinic! Many similar minor symptoms, dry eyes, tingling feeling all over, hyper and energetic, muscle weakness, some joint pains . . . I don't see how I can ever increase any type of folate when I am so insanely sensitive to it. Ugh. Anyway, it was an important experiment to see the effect at such a low dose of FOLINIC, not methylfolate.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sea,

    I am relatively insensitive to most all the b-complex except folate and B12. There is at least one non-folate non-b12 item that affects MY heart rhythms if I don't take b-complex twice a day. I have never pinned that one down so it may be a combination.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Have you tried folinic just by itself? I'm asking because it might be another ingredient in the multi. Also, how much b12 are you taking? And you taking other methyl donors?
     
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  15. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi;
    Thought I'd file this B Compex here: http://www.seekinghealth.com/b-complex-supplement.html
    This is Dr. Ben Lynch's product. It contains 400mcg. of methylfolate in one dosage. ( could be too much for some)
    The other B's are pretty low dose. ( it's what I prefer)
    It does have a higher dosage of B3, (niacinamide)
     
  16. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I doubt it is anything else since the symptoms are very distinctive and numerous for me for methylfolate and now, folinic too. I've tried them in several different B-complexes and multi-vitamins, all with different ingredients and get the same constellation of symptoms.

    I'm currently taking 6000 of ENZY mb12, 1000 of Solgar mb12 and 2000 of Highlander Triple (methyl, adeno and hydroxy). My doctor saw my blood levels and asked me to cut my dose in half, saying it is "too high". Interestingly, when I was taking the methylfolate, it almost did feel like too much and that I didn't even need it.

    Could the disparity between the tiny dose of methylfolate and the 9000 (over the course of the day) of B-12 make symptoms more aggrevated? When I take methylfolate I often forget to take my B-12 doses. When I stop taking methylfolate my feet are ice cold, prompting me to feel like my B-12 is too low, even though it wasn't before. Perhaps that will go away over time. I'm experimenting with stopping taking it to see how long it takes for things to return to normal, or if they never will. So far it took 4 days to get to the point of feeling "myself" again mentally, and several of the physical changes are still ongoing at lower levels, i.e., cold numb feeling feet on and off, some stomach cramping, etc.
     
  17. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Victronix;
    If I may interject, I believe it could be possible that the dosage is lopsided, favoring the methyl B12 over the methylfolate. I hardly know anything about snp's, but from reading here, a COMT++ would make one sensitve to methyl groups.

    So it looks like you are figuring this out, and I'm just repeating what you know. ( I realize the difficulty of getting the proportions right, and the idea of reducing B12.)

    Also, have you tried adding some B3, and maybe some B2? ( They've helped me with this situation.)
     
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if I have much to add as far what Crux said. I agree that if you lower the B12 you will be able to tolerate more folate. Is there a reason why you're taking such a high dosage of B12? I'm not sure if you're following a specific protocol, but I'll tell what Rich recommends as far as ratios just to give you an idea of what to consider. Rich recommends starting with 200 mcg folinic acid, 200 mcg methylfolate, and 2000 mcg hydroxocobalamin. He recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin because most people can convert that into a sufficient amount of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. If you experience no improvement after a few months he recommends increasing the dose methylfolate and B12. Instead of increasing the dose of hydroxocobalamin beyond 2000 mcg, he recommends switching to methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. I don't know what the equivalent of hb12 to mb12 would be, but if you're taking 2000 mcg of hydroxocobalamin without any problems then I'd say start out with no more than 500 mcg of methylcobalamin. Especially if you're taking a good brand like Enzymatic Therapy. Rich recommends not going much higher than 800 mcg methylfolate and 2000 mcg methylcobalamin. So, here's the ratios
    Starting: 200 mcg folinic + 200 mcg methylfolate + 2000 mcg hydroxocobalamin
    Up to: 800 mcg methylfolate + 2000 mcg methylcobalamin
    I don't know what doses will work for you. I'm not even able to tolerate the starting dosages of Rich's protocol and some of the people following Freddd's protocol take much higher than 800 mcg methylfolate and 2000 mcg methylcobalamin.
     
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  19. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Thanks. I started off taking B-12 because I was diagnosed with a B-12 deficiency in 2008 when I woke up one day and my feet and lower legs were numb, walking on them was like walking on clubs. It was very disturbing.

    I increased the dosage as necessary (with the help of people on a B-12 forum) to offset the tingling, numbness and fatigue. So I've been at this dosage for at least a year, perhaps slightly less the year before that. It took a long time to get up to that level but each time I increased it, it was helpful. Gradually the problems like constant muscle pains and headaches disappeared as I increased.

    Of course, perhaps the B-12 was compensating for folate issues?

    Rich's protocol wouldn't necessarily be for someone with an actual deficiency, who gets almost no B-12 from diet. My serum level was something like 150 when I was tested. There's only a small region of the intestine that can absorb it because it's such a large molecule, apparently, so the idea is that my gut got wiped out by antibiotics.

    Maybe that's another strategy, that when I start the methylfolate again, to decrease the B-12 ahead of time. Or perhaps the ratio doesn't actually matter and Rich proposed that because it seemed logical. I still do not fully understand the methyl trap.
     
  20. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Thanks. Yes, I take a B-multi 2x a day, have for a few years.

    Yes, I think it's intuitive to assume that the amounts should be balanced, but the reality may be counter-intuitive, I don't know. Being COMT++ has probably made it all the more difficult for rme.
     

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