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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
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B-Complex without Folic Acid

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Linda828

    Linda828

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    Hi Rachael,
    MTHF is the same as methylfolate. MTHF is an acronym for methyltetrahydrofolate. I'm just saying they don't use any other forms of folate than methylfolate (such as folic acid, folinic acid, calcium folinate etc.).

    The only two companies I have found that do not use stearate are Thorne and Pure Encapsulations. The claim is that stearate does lower the absorption of vitamins in the intestines. I've heard 40% reduction, but I don't remember the source. Someone else might have more current and accurate information.

    I've also read some other heath issues with stearates. It would be interesting to start a thread on magnesium stearates and see what others have determined in that regard.

    Blessings
    Linda
     
  2. Linda828

    Linda828

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    Hi Fred,

    I really like this idea of sculpting your own B vitamin on top of a basic B-Complex, especially one that doesn't have B12 or folic acid. I checked out the Nature Made B-complex with C that you mention. It contains propylene glycol, which I would rather avoid. I'm interested in something similar, though.

    When I looked at the Biocare B-plex, it looked like it had both b12 and folate. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong product. If someone has a link to the Biocare product without folic or B12 I'd appreciate it.
     
  3. dece

    dece

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    Hi Linda, here is a link to the biocare b-plex which I use and does not contain any form of folate nor b12..

    http://www.vit-shop.co.uk/store/p/6...-folic-acid-and-vitamin-B12)-60-capsules.html

    As Lotus pointed out a few posts ago, biocare has 2 versions of b complexes, which seems to make things quite complex for us sometimes (pun intended) :)

    Hope this helps, Dece
     
    Linda828 likes this.
  4. Linda828

    Linda828

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    Hi dece,
    Thanks for that link. I was looking at the wrong BioCare B-plex.
    Linda
     
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks. I didn't know about that one. It's really annoying when b-complexes without folic acid are actually more expensive than the ones with folic acid. Even if they're made by the same brand! I don't know yet if folic acid is a problem for me, but I'm trying to remove as many variables as possible. At the very least, folic acid uses up NADPH which is in short supply for many of us.
    That's pretty much what I'm doing except that I'm taking a b complex with a low dose of folic acid (rather than the standard 400 mcg). If I had known about the Nature Made one though I would have bought that instead (or the Biocare B-Plex). I'm curious though why you don't take a b complex with methylfolate. There are several brands that have one without folic or folinic acid and most have at least some of the b vitamins in coenzymated forms.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Lotus,

    The B-Right was an excellent moderate cost b-complex of moderate dose that could be taken twice a day by most except for the folic acid. It ran $7-9/100. Using separates and buying relatively larger bottles and so on, and NatureMade cost , $7. The rest of the separates not counting Metafolin total about 10 cents per dose. The brands containing the l-methylfolate have a more or less $20 additional cost. The amount in the complex is inconsequential in the total I'm taking. I have to take b-complex with food. I take my Metafolin 30 minutes before food with which I take potassium and vitamin C for better absorption.
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    They've raised the price of B right. Of course it now has Quatrefolic methylfolate and less folic acid...I also take most of my supplements separately because it's almost always cheaper, but I'm sort of at my limit now which why I want a b complex for convenience even if it's more expensive. I understand about the methylfolate away from potassium and vitamin C (and iron?), but why do you take the b complex with food? Once I start taking methylfolate I was planning to just buy a b complex with methylfolate, but if there's a reason not to I'd like to hear it.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    but why do you take the b complex with food?

    That's easy. It irritates my stomach and makes me vomit. Also If I take it with an egg or meat but not enough other foods of almost all varieties, I also vomit. Its no problem at all with mixed foods. I just wish it all were a whole lot simpler. Taking pills runs my days, all day every day. Between keeping the sublinguals in my mouth 10+ hours daily, morning wakeup folate, then plus couple of hours potassium, morning meal/snacks various vitamins, evening meal - 30 Metafolin, evening meal potassium and C,, bedtime t-30 Metafolin, bedtime - potassium. When I travel for vacation I have a box full of vitamins or gallon bags full of pre-sorted vitamins. TSA agents groan with the "Get a load of this pharmacy bag" as they all look at the pictures trying to decide if they have to open and inspect. One time I had a one pound plastic container of fresh ground organic peanut butter in my bag and it set off the alarms for the protein content (high nitrogen) and density which looked like something else. Another time they asked me about "weird circles" in my bag. It was my mini-socket wrench set at an angle they hadn't seen before, part of the tools I carried for computers.

    With the damage and the incomplete healing of the damage, I have to stay on a knife edge of balance day after day and if I slip its that old sliding down the razor blade of life. The price of letting it get too out of control is a fast slide down neurological degeneration. I've been there and done that and don't want to do it again. If I even end up without having control of my vitamins and taking them, game over.

    The sooner you heal the less likely you will end up like me. I don't have CFS or FMS or ME and I have no idea what would prevent further trouble there, the deadlock quartet for sure. The problems is the quantities/cost and the delicate nature of neurological healing. It is very unlike these things because maintaining function means gaining function because otherwise it is loosing function. It's appears to be an equilibrium situation with breaking down and reforming myelin is constant but shits around. If the balance is improved, I get more feeling back, if something goes wrong (ie Jarrow) I get nailed and it takes 6-12 months to regain the lost ground if it does.

    We all need some smart younger folks to keep figuring this out and make it simple enough to do going into old age so that an ignorant caregiver can keep us healthy and functional.

    I didn't end up with MS or Parkinson's or ALS but SACD is no pleasure. As far as I can tell, the pain attributed to FMS is an earlier form of SACD pain. That is why they are finding anti seizure meds are effective against the pain. I did too. I took Dilantin for 13 years. The hyper pain sensitization is progresses into other things in SACD but it is all on a continuum.
     
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear about that. I think most of us here who take a lot of supplements run into one side effect or another. Just because supplements have less side effects than prescription drugs doesn't mean people don't run into problems. I read a lot of customer reviews on iHerb and most people don't have any side effects, but then 3% of the time there's some odd side effect that only affects one person.
    If someone walked into my room and saw all my bottles and containers it would blow their mind. My parents know how sick I am so they're mostly ok. Even though my dad's had MCS for 10 years it's taken my parents a long time to realize how sick I am.
    Everyone is different. I have Lyme disease and others here have various other virus/infections which complicates things a bit. Others have toxic exposure such as metals, chemicals, or mold. Some have autoimmune conditions. Some have a combination of things. I was able to make a partial recovery before, but it was very easy for me to relapse. Right now I'm too sick to treat Lyme (and I can't afford a good doctor either) so I'm just doing other stuff like methylation and a dozen other things to build up my strength. Rich seemed to think methylation and restoring glutathione and mitochondrial function was an important part of building up the immune system which is something I've been focusing a lot on recently. Methylation is part of the puzzle and for some it's the final piece, but for many others it's only one step of many that needs to be taken.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    I used to have FMS/CFS and a dozen or two other diagnoses. Removing 175 symptoms from my own list made it a lot easier. I can talk to doctors ONLY about what is current and they are much happier dealing with a dozen or two related symptoms. We can actually get through the whole list in an appointment. What I have now is the actual damage from a car wreck and the long term vitamin deficiencies. Without removing that vast number of symptoms my docs didn't have a chance as they didn't know what mattered. Just picture if you only had 23 clear cut symptoms left you or somebody might say "I recognize that". My docs were concerned about congestive heart failure. Turns out it isn't a problems. It just disappeared a little at a time as I healed. It was no hare today, goon tomorrow. Instead b-complex twice a day got rid of most arrhythmias, mitochondrial function returned, I lost the edema, then the muscles in general healed and after 6 or 7 years it was gone instead of me. MCS was the same way. It didn't just turn off one day. Instead it faded imperceptibly and I noticed it's absence one day. Same with asthma, seasonal allergies, skin problems , multiple food sensitivities.

    So many hundreds of things go wrong without these critical items causality is almost impossible to define. Parkinson's looks easy. People with Parkinson's and MS have a completely predictable set of extreme but different characteristic responses to the deadlock Quartet. People with ALS had similar responses in the Japanese high dose 50mg MeCbl study. People with CFS/FMS/ME have a thoroughly predictable set of responses dependent upon their exact symptoms. People with no responses don't have these conditions.

    So many things correct with the Deadlock Quartet. The problem is that the longer things go on the more it is damage rather than functional malfunctions. As things progress secondary damages start up and all sorts of things go wrong. As you say, toxins accumulate and are not handled right. I had a long term infection with chronically swollen glands. It took 16 grams of Vit C to control that for decades. Now it takes 5-6gr of C a day and the Deadlock Quartet. I took several rounds of Olive Leaf Extract that seemed to work on all these various things as they each in turn intensified and were out for the last time.

    Because it is in layers, one of the strangest things is healing on some layers at the same time as getting worse on other layers. Also, a layer can seem worse when the sensory layer of symptoms that was obscuring them is peeled off leaving them fully revealed for the first time. This enhancement of body perception made it easier to get rid of each in turn. Without having the generalized healing occur, I have no idea how to separate out what can heal from what can't heal. Hundreds of things will change, some will eventually turn out to be steps in healing hundreds of little connected things.
     
  11. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    BTW, I found a multi-vitamin (not B-multi) without folic acid or methyl-folate --

    http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article10.aspx

    It's about $36 for a month's worth, but it could work as a transition to removing folic acid totally if you cannot yet tolerate the 400 or 800 mcgs of methyl-folate in the few multi-vitamins that don't have folic acid. I need to take a multi because I basically have malabsorption and the testing I did in 2010 showed all kinds of deficiencies. I am not yet at a point where I want to try to do everything individually -- I have to hold down a job and other responsibilities and don't have a chunk of time to figure all that out. (I did, however, get the Nature Made B-Complex to replace the B-Right but probably will not try to sculpt other B's at this point . . . ).

    My question is how long it takes to get to the point of tolerating methyl-folate if you have removed all folic acid from your diet and supplements.

    With starting methyl B-12, most people could ballpark the time to adjust -- a couple of weeks to ride out the start-up symptoms, and then each time it's increased, that time to manage the symptoms also decreases.

    On here I see people talking about taking years to adjust to methyl-folate if they are sensitive. Others just go right into 400 or 800 mcg and don't seem to be phased by it.

    Also, the question of how long it takes to clear the folic acid from the system if the liver is storing it, as things I've read suggest.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Victronix,


    What isn't clear is what some of the reactions actually mean. Whenever a person is taking folic and/or folinic acid along with l-methylfolate there is no answer as to what is causing the problem. The combination is a problem because of which reation is happening is indeterminate. The answer still will come down to what is the reaction on l-methylfolate alone or folinic acid and then separately l-methylfolate.

    In practice folic acid appears to largely clear from serum, at least sufficiently that it lets l-methylfolate do it's job. Folinic acid appears to take about 3 days to clear that far. If person "A" interprets a specific symptoms set as donut hole folate insufficiency and increases by several 800mcg tablets a day and the symptoms diminish as the level goes up, they are adjusted in a few days with rapidly decreasing symptoms. If person "B" interprets exactly the same set of symptoms in the same circumstances as "detox" and keeps cutting back the dose it takes years. Even if they are not having donut hole paradoxical folate insufficiency the problem isn't being solved. It's very counter intuitive for many people. Like "Please don't throw me in the briar patch.".

    Honestly, "tolerating" l-methylfolate, unless it is the most deficient item, is so very simple for most people it isn't even a question that would be worded that way. If it is most deficient and causes all the startup as last item in before anything starts, that is a good reason to start with the low titration on the MeCbl and AdoCbl with 200mcg of methylfolate and deal with the two most frequent response, low potassium and low folate, before moving to higher doses. 200mcg of l-methylfolate can't support the amount of healing it can start so it is low for virtually everybody with a whole lot of symptoms. At the same time it starts enough healing as to cause potassium to drop.

    I also understand how a person gets so they don't know whether they are coming or going as they hear so many different stories. You know, when I took that first 1000mcg sublingual ENZY and in 5 minutes I started to feel some changes and then by 15 minutes I was rushing like mad and continued to do so for 45 minutes. I know that my life was changed. I had just found what had been missing. Yes, it was an intense and wild ride and it was all in the service of healing. That is what I thought. That was what motivated me to maximize the effectiveness for as long as possible, a period of accelerated healing. At the end of that I had enough energy to walk up the stairs. A lifelong depression had lifted. Multi-sensory hallucinations had started fading. I never have had trouble focusing my eyes since then. No more acid regurgitations in the mi9ddle of the night. No more endless nausea. And it get better from there. Healing was hyper intense and allowed me to tell what was happening with each new thing I tried. And it all got better form there. In 10 days burning mouth, tongue, bladder, skin, muscles all had stopped burning. And it kept getting better like that for 9 months before fading and then I added AdoCbl. I have found it is better to start with a more balanced combination and eliminates most possibilities of what is going on because methylation is started, methyltrap is broken, both in a predictable time period and partial ATP block will usually start to be lifted.

    Good luck.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I hear you on that. I had a major relapse after taking too much methylfolate for about 5 weeks. I've heard from several others who have also had a hard time with methylfolate. Based on the results of the 2009 methylation study conducted by Rich and Dr. Neil Nathan, it seems the majority of the people here don't need such a high dose. However, Rich did revise his protocol last year to allow for some people to switch the methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin and also possibly increase methylfolate, but he seemed to think most people didn't need to go above 800 mcg of methylfolate (and 2000 mcg methylcobalamin).

    I actually found some better options as far as multis with little or no methylfolate. Some of these might be cheaper on Amazon.com or eBay.com

    This first one is called 2 per day, but it's kind of confusing because the values are for 2 tablets or 4 capsules. It only has folinic acid/calcium folinate.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/vitamin-formulas/multi-two-60-tabs.html
    This one is similar to the first one except it has less copper and zinc, but also less b vitamins (although some are only coenzymated which might be preferable even if the dose is lower. It also only has folinic acid/calcium folinate. There are several other differences between the two.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/mini-multi.html
    This is similar to the first two except it has a combination of folinic acid/calcium folinate and methylfolate (66 mcg methylfolate/133 mcg folinic acid per tablet). It also has a higher amount of coenzymated B vitamins than the first two.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/mighty.html
    This last one is for anyone who wants a very low dose of everything. The values seem quite low, but B1, B2, and B6 are in coenzymated forms and it's chewable so it can be taken sublingually to increase absorption.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/vitamin-formulas/kids-mighty-multi-chewable.html
    Since it's chewable that means it also has xylitol and mannitol which might be undesired. I'm taking it now. It doesn't taste terrible, but it's still kind of gross because it takes a long time to dissolve and I think I might be sensitive to the xylitol/mannitol.
    There's also a b complex with only folinic acid/calcium folinate and some coenzymated B vitamins. If anyone wants this b complex and the multis it would be cheaper to buy this B complex from the place that sells the multis since it's a flat rate shipping, but if you want the B complex then it's cheaper here.
    http://www.myvillagegreen.com/pathway-b-complex-50.html
     
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  14. rachel

    rachel

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    Thank you Linda for your help.

    Does someone have any idea about the others ingredients in Thorne's supplements and in this specific formula?
    Does the folate involve or encourage in the methylation process?
    http://www.thorne.com/Products/Mood-Sleep-Support/All_Mood_Sleep_Support/prd~B104.jsp
     
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Methylfolate is necessary for methylation, but some people need to start at a very low dose due to side effects.
    AOR has a b complex without stearate. Even though it says folic acid in the description I'm told that it's actually methylfolate, but due to some Canadian law they have to list it the way they do.
    http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Ortho...eries-Advanced-B-Complex-90-Veggie-Caps/33062
    Metabolic Maintenance doesn't use stearate or any other excipient. The amount of methylfolate in their b complex might be too high for some people.
    http://www.iherb.com/Metabolic-Maintenance-B-Complex-100-Capsules/37558
    They also have a multi (with or without iron)
    http://www.pureformulas.com/the-big...tabolic-maintenance.html#sthash.XMQkxGv9.dpbs
     
  16. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Thanks, those are good to know about -- I hadn't thought about folinic.
     
  17. rachel

    rachel

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    I tried to take "MethylMate B" a few months ago but didn't remember all the expressions for it. I tried a small amount of it, 66 mcg per serving and had negative symptoms (there's also l-glutathione reduced as part of 5.2 mg blend that maybe also can cause symptoms). I was afraid to continue supporting the methylation cycle through this therapy, also because the pottasium addings reqirements to the diet. I guess there's no B-complex without the folate and it isn't a balancing process to take all the B except this so on second thoughts, IDK if the amount of the methylfolate in the B-complex above appropriates to my needs.
     
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Most people don't have adverse reactions to glutathione and even if you're one who does, 5 mg isn't enough to do anything. Some people need to start at a very low dose of methylfolate. How many servings are you taking a day? If one serving is too much you could mix a drop in water and drink half the liquid. One person I know had to wet a toothpick and pick up just a very tiny amount of methylfolate and even that was too much at first. You could try a lower dose of methylfolate or you could try taking just folinic acid. Most people are able to convert folinic acid to methylfolate so you could try just folinic acid first. The multis with folinic acid I mentioned in this thread all have stearate so I guess those aren't an option. The only b complex with folinic acid has quite a lot of folinic acid so you might want to start with 1/4 a capsule if you do try it.
    http://www.myvillagegreen.com/pathway-b-complex-50.html

    Another option is just to take all your B vitamins separately and that way you'd have control over your folate dosage. Swanson is the cheapest.
    http://www.swansonvitamins.com/
    If you're a first time customer I can give you a discount code if you PM me. Otherwise, I'd recommend signing up for their mailing list since they have a lot of sales. Right now they have a really good sale. Enter DISCOUNT and get 10% off your order and free shipping on orders over $50 (normally it's $5 for shipping). Ends 4/01/13 11:59 PM CDT.

    A third option would be more expensive than taking all your b vitamins separately, but more convenient. There's a company that makes a B50 b complex without any folic acid or B12. It's B-Plex by Biocare. Make sure you don't accidentally buy their B-complex which has folic acid. B-plex is the one without any folate. If you don't live in the UK, shipping is kind of pricey which is why I haven't ordered any for myself yet. If you're interested, these stores all ship internationally (I'm not sure which one has the cheapest shipping because some calculate it by the weight I think and others by the amount of items)
    http://www.vitaminsforlife.co.uk/biocare-b-plex-without-folic-acid-vitamin-b12-60-capsules.html
    http://www.totallynourish.com/biocare-b-plex-60-caps/en?#productAnchor
    http://www.biocare.co.uk/default.as...Guid=23660&PageItemGroupGuid=21#productAnchor
    https://www.revital.co.uk/-BioCare_B_Plex
     
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  19. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Question -- so folinic should not have the methylation start-up issues that methylfolate has? I'm realizing I'm going to have to go a lot slower at this than I realized, and don't want to feel like I'm going to end up deficient in folate. I was able to do the tiny amount (<25 mcg) and manage the need for potassium but then tried doubling that and can't keep up. The potassium does work, but waking up every 2 hours at night to drink coconut water or V8 or eat a banana is too difficult. I'm really not wanting to take the pills, but I suppose I may have to try. In the mean time, I may try that childrens multi.

    One person I know had to wet a toothpick and pick up just a very tiny amount of methylfolate and even that was too much at first.

    That's nice to hear for those of us in this bind -- not alone. Even knowing I'm COMT++ doesn't help all the time. It's important to know there are others suffering with this level of sensitivity as well.
     
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  20. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    There is a B-multi that Fredd mentioned that I'm taking which is Nature Made B Complex with C. It has no folate or folic acid or folinic. So you can take that and then do micro-doses of methylfolate as tolerable separately. http://www.naturemade.com/products/b-complex/b-complex-with-c
     

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