The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
Simon McGrath concludes his blog about the remarkable Prof George Davey Smith's smart ideas for understanding diseases, which may soon be applied to ME/CFS.
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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    Thank you Freddd for your analysis. I'm going to put the adB12 back in for a while and see what happens. If I recall, you said a while back that sometimes 15-18mg of adB12 1xweek could possibly be more effective than once a day? I didn't feel any effect from either.

    undcvr, I have never tried Lyrica, or any other meds, for that matter. However, I don't see the symtoms of what I have as matching those of Fibro.

    Pam, interesting that we have similar symptoms. The interesting (and frustrating) thing about this syndrome is that each person seems to be affected a little differently, making across-the-board cures difficult.
     
  2. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    I have a question about the sublinguals. I started the protocol about a week ago. I am having a hard time dissolving them. Is this usual? Sometimes I will put a mb12 in my mouth before I go to sleep. When I wake up in the morning (approximately 6 hours later), about 1/3 of it is still there. When I do my morning dose, it will last for 3 hours or more if I let it. I know that I am absorbing some of it as I am going through start-up, but this concerns me a bit as I am prone to gum disease. Any form of detox wrecks havoc on my mouth! The stronger the reaction to detox or start-up, dry mouth will make an appearance. Because of this, I am diligent about keeping my mouth clean, as I went through misery with this last year.
     
  3. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    I am wondering if the dosage for formyl and/or methyl folate isnt enough when it comes to the methylation therapy for PWC. I am mentioning this because of how much B12 cfs pple have to take to get any benefit from it. I take about 20mg a day and that is just mB12 alone. So far the amounts that Rich Vank and Amy Yasko proposes are in the mcg range and are eventually for people with autism.

    I also know other PWC who benefit from very high doses of active B6 too, about 100-200mg a day. On top of that, the companies that sell Deplin and Leucovorin mmanufacturer them in doses of 7.5 and 15mg only. Nothing less.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Shellbell,

    Most people have just the opposite problem. I would guess your mouth tends to be overly dry. I used to have problems with gum infections that were not kept under control by flossing. However, as I healed those al went away.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Undcvr,

    I'm currently taking 8800mcg of Metafolin. All of my folate deficiency leading indicators are healed. However, my need went up after the glutathione setback so now I need a much larger dose to achieve the same thing. I think there might be tremendously varying needs depending upon a persons biochemistry specifics. The trick is to find what ones indicators are and then clear them up.
     
  6. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    That's good to hear Fred! Thanks!
     
  7. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    What are the indicators you are using ? The only commercial one that I have used is the folic acid levels test and that is far from perfect.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Undcvr,

    When I am folate deficient my epidermal cell reproduction goes down the tubes, fast. The skin around my finger tips and nails starts sloughing off. I develop cracks and sores at the corners of my mouth (angular cheilitis). If it goes for a couple weeks beyond that I start developing acne type lesions and infected follicles in many places on my body. Beyond that then my digestive system starts breaking down (epithelial tissues), I start having allergic responses to all sorts of thngs, asthma returns (again, lungs are epithelial tissues), etc. Then my neurology starts breaking down. So If I pay attention to leading indicators, the ones that develop in a week, I can head off worse problems.
     
  9. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Question for Fredd

    Do you think it is helpful to have an Organic Acids test done from Genova to see what is actually happening whilst one is taking all the supplements? I have found that I can only take all the supplements around breakfast time other wise I get really severe insomnia not being able to sleep till 2 am and end up feeling terrible cos of lack of sleep. This has happened when I have taken extra MB12 at lunchtime or ADB12 lunchtime or B Right lunchtime.

    Pam
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    Do you think it is helpful to have an Organic Acids test done from Genova to see what is actually happening whilst one is taking all the supplements?

    I can't really say whether it is helpful or not. A lot of the problem comes down to what are the characteristics of the norming population. If the population is based on average people, many of whom are deficient in b12s and/or folate with typical symptoms being ignored, and if b12s and folate status affects these tests, what does it really tell you. Is it comforting to know that "average" MCV is now solidly into the borderline macrocytotic area and so something that would have been alerted 30 years ago is ignored now as normal? Also, if there are are 10,000 steps to healing, how different are the various steps? Are the results going to change every week as one progresses through the healing? If they do, what is their meaning.

    I have found that I can only take all the supplements around breakfast time other wise I get really severe insomnia not being able to sleep till 2 am

    That will fade as your body adapts to the changes after you reach equilibrium. Then you won't be able to keep the more energized feeling mas it fades away to normal.
     
  11. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    I understand what you are saying regarding testing, it is quite expensive and only shows what is going on at that time so won't bother but will carry on with the supplements.

    The big problem I have with taking any extra supplement at lunchtime apart from my usual Multi (has active Bs in it) which contributes to the horrible insomnia is that the next day I usually wake with a migraine from the lack of sleep meaning I have to take loads of painkillers to get it under control which cannot be good for my body. Also the ensuing tiredness puts a very big strain on my adrenals and makes me feel depressed and exhausted.

    However, if I only take the MB12 etc around breakfast time this doesn't happen and I notice quite good energy for the rest of the day anyway. As I mentioned in a previous post my main problem is that my energy runs out when exercising and leaves me depleted but the energy is restored the next day provided I have had a good night's sleep.

    I am very happy to feel the energy come back into my body quite quickly on getting up, this didn't used to happen until I added in the extra supplements 2 weeks ago. I am trying to walk each afternoon and did well today even though I had been to a meeting for most of the morning. At first my legs felt not great but I pushed on and managed around 17 minutes had a short sit down and then was able to walk on for another 5 minutes. That was my limit but once home there was still some energy there and I felt fine.

    If I could just get rid of the throat infections I keep getting I would think I was doing very well!

    Thanks for all your help
    Pam
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    Long before mb12 or adb12 could actually be purchased there was Linus Pauling and vitamin C. When asked how much vitamin C is enough, his answer was "When you stop getting sick". For me, in the absence of active b12s and folates that was 16 grams a day. That resulted in a 99% reduction in strep throats until I had children, and even then it was a better than 90%. In a short period while I was titrating the C, the chronic UTI I had for several years went away, strep throats went away, I stopped getting the flu. my chronically swollen glands (20 years duration) went down, constant low grade fevers went away and my frequent nosebleeds stopped. From a frequent occurrence to never, the nose bleeds that used to be a dozen or more a year went to zero for the next 40 years having never returned. With the mb12 etc I ham now taking 6-8 grams of C a day. Now with the mb12 etc my health is the best in my life. Frequent nosebleeds are associated with tissue breakdown from Vit C deficiency, before scurvy is recognized.

    Are you taking the adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate? D-ribose after exercising may restore energy rapidly.
     
  13. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    I must increase my Vitamin C that's for sure. I haven't tried taking the adb12 and carnitine after exercise just at breakfast time. I don't do well with the Ribose cos it causes my blood sugar to go too high. I have to watch that carefully cos of the steroid I tend to have slightly too high blood sugars during the day and have to have nil sugars and very small amount of carbs in general.

    Will see how the energy goes on and will try your suggestion if I find I am still having problems with it running out after exercise. For me shopping is one of the worst things I can do energy-wise. I don't have to be in a shop for very long before I am in trouble and then that will be it for the rest of the day.

    Pam
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Pam, my "after exercise" applied ONLY to the d-ribose as it helps rebuild the ATP.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Several papers you may find interesting.

    Vitamin B12 Could be A Master Key in the Regulation of
    Multiple Pathological Processes
    Ilia Volkov, Yan Press and Inna Rudoy
    Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel

    The master key effect of vitamin B12 in treatment
    of malignancy – A potential therapy?
    Ilia Volkov *
    Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev,
    Lea Imenu St. 59/2, Beer-Sheva 84514, Israel

    The Critical Role of Vitamin B12
    Ilia Volkov, MD

    I was sent the papers. I haven't looked for links yet.
     
  16. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    Hey Fredd, I was wondering if you know anything about this: How hard is it for the body to attach the adenosyl group to cobalamin to generate aB12 ?
    I am asking this because I am wondering if I am the only one experiencing more benefits from mB12 than aB12 ? On days that I take mB12 alone, I do not feel any or much worse compared to days I take it together with 3,6, or 9mg of aB12 (Country Life).

    I know that adenosine generated from the ATP cycle wiill need to bind to the cobalamin corrin ring before it becomes active aB12. But apart from cyano and hydroxy supplements out there, there is yet another supplement sold - straight cobalamin (Solgar B12). This product would reduce the enzymatic step even further from cyano, hydroxy supplements before they get to cobalamin. So my question is this, is Cobalamin by itself also another active form of B12 that we just dont know much about ? That is what mB12 eventually ends up as anyway after demethylation.

    Also another thing that i was thinking about is that since there is no bonding of the the cobalamin to a substitution group, there is no weak bond to be concerned about and cobalamin can just be taken orally without the need for injections or sublingual.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Undcvr,

    I am asking this because I am wondering if I am the only one experiencing more benefits from mB12 than aB12 ?


    Be careful of misinterpreting what you perceive. Adb12 is very different from mb12. Typically a person feels mild startup for the first dose or two only and nothing at all on an ongoing basis as long as equilibrium is maintained. If one doesn't take adb12 for a month, then mild startup might be perceived. You see, adb12 does two things, occupies the mitochondria which produces energy and helps form myelin. The adb12 stays in the mitochondria once it is there so there is not a regular turnover. Deficiency symptoms of adb12 only come back very slowly, especially the only noticeable effects, the energy producing function. Mb12 on the other hand circulates and is dumped out of the body rapidly, so some people can feel an effect from each tablet until they get to a high body equilibrium. When you can't feel the adb12 that means it is doing it's job. You may find that taking one adb12 per week is quite sufficient to maintain body/mitochondria equilibrium. It gets more questionable when it comes to myelin and CNS equilibrium. I have experimented with adb12 from quite a bit per day timed for CNS penetration with my mb12 injections to once per week. Some people say "I need 5 per day" every day to banish brainfog. SOme find 1 per day to 1 per week entirely satisfactory.

    Mb12 deficiency symptoms start coming back within 3 days of not taking any for many people. Until a high level of equilibrium is reached, some people will feel every dose of mb12.


    there is yet another supplement sold - straight cobalamin (Solgar B12).

    is Cobalamin by itself also another active form of B12 that we just dont know much about

    I don't believe that to be the case. Solgar sells methylcobalamin. It also sells something at a lower cost as "b12" from "cobalamin" but unspecified "b12" or "cobalamin" is ALWAYS cyanocobalamin, at least in the USA.

    The Solgar mb12 hasn't been tested by me originally. And with the high dose I take, I can't distinguish these things as I could when I was severely deficient.

    In any case, most of the healing appears to be casused by circulating adb12 and circulating mb12 which can diffuse into the cells immediately as needed rather than having to be squeezed through a keyhole of enzyme conversion which is severely limited.
     
  18. L'engle

    L'engle moogle

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    Hi,

    In Canada my local stores can't order either of the five star brands of mb12. I know not to buy source naturals, but is there a listing anywhere in here of what other brands were tried and how they compared? It is too expensive for me to order the vitamins online since the shipping is very high. I don't know if any of the brands that were tested overlap with the ones I can buy here.

    Thanks!
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,

    None of the others even came close to the two 5 star mb12s. iherb.com shipping to Canada is still cheaper than buying the same brands at a healthffood store with full retail markup. ALso, for your first order you can get $5 off with the referral coupon code RED843. You can get 4 or 5 jars shipped for the difference in markup of one jar. One other brand reported to me was Medicne Shoppe house brand MB12 sublingul 1000mcg. That sounds like about 4 star from reports I have had. Here is what you do. Buy 5 or more brands. Take each brand for 2-3 days,even several times per day, keeping it under lip for 1-2 hours each time. See which ones have the MOST effects of any kind. Keep rotating around and comparing each pair going each direction. It will be pretty clear pretty soon which ones are more effective. Then unless any one of them is a real knock your socks off effect, keep adding brands until you find one that is. Then update all of us with what you have found. It would be good if you got at least one of the 5 star for comparison purposes. Also, there is no replacement for Metafolin or Country Life Dibencozide (adb12). In Canada, the one thing you can't order without your doc's cooperation is l-carnitine fumarate.
     
  20. L'engle

    L'engle moogle

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    Thanks Fredd, I'll look into the iherb option.
     

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