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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi Fredd, you had asked what affect I had from the adb12, nothing dramatic but I feel better especially my mood. I had severe anxiety and this last week I have not been anxious and as strange as it sounds I am laughing alot more.
    There has been improvement with both fatigue & brainfog.

    Lena
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lena.

    That sounds excellent. Amazing what energizing the nervous system can do. Actually that sounds pretty dramatic to me. I was thrilled when my mood of decades changed.
     
  3. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd,

    Thanks for all the information you have shared on the forum, its very interesting! I decided to experiment with your protocol because I know that I am very deficient in B12 and the active folates. I just wanted to ask your opinion about some of the symptoms I have been getting particularly with the methyl b12. I have generally avoided taking methyl b12 due to bad reactions which I attributed at the time to mercury being stirred up and redistributed. I normally get headaches with it, and it is a very similar reaction to when I take Alpha Lipoic Acid which does seem to chelate mercury in my case....so I assumed this was what was happening with the methy b12. Though I appreciate that there is a lot of debate over whether methyl b12 can have this effect on mercury.

    Recently I started on the adenosyl b12 that you recommend, I have never taken that before and it is definitely having a small but positive effect on my mood and energy which is great!

    I'm having more trouble with the methyl b12 which I expected. I first took one whole 1000mcg Jarrow methyl b12 tablet a few weeks ago just as an experiment and I felt almost normal psychologically. I have a LOT of neurological/psychological symptoms which vary in their intensity eg terrible memory/cognitive problems, depression, personality changes eg severe rage/irritability, apathy, a lot of the symptoms you have listed in other posts.

    Then everything started to go haywire, I had an increase in neurological symptoms and felt like I was literally falling apart mentally and physically, with LOTS of metal taste and increased saliva in my mouth. Anyway luckily when I stopped taking it it passed after a few days!!

    Ive started back on the methyl b12 recently, after introducing the adb12, just 1/4 of a tablet but have tried to increase to 1/4 X 3 times a day and starting to feel much the same, a bit like Lisag with a feeling of 'brain damage' and dementia like symptoms, not being able to read or think properly, much worse than regular brain fog, and generally very worrying!

    Just to let you know I havent consistently taken hydroxy b12 or cyano b12 over the yrs tho i have taken both from time to time and did have b12 injections many yrs ago...tho dont know what form that was. I do have mercury toxicity and various infections eg lyme & co, & viruses. I guess starting the methylation cycle will inevitably help my body to deal with these burdens and cause symptoms.

    I'm taking active folic acid and just stared the jarrow b right too.

    I just wondered what your thoughts were and wonder what do you think of the excessive metal taste?

    Thanks!
     
  4. Angel

    Angel

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    nausea

    when I supplement with cyanacobalamine I get nauseated. I can handle it in injections. Usually I can take methyl B12 and don't get nauseated, but not always.
     
  5. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Fredd I ended up in the hospital when my friends panicked about the pain in my calves and after a blood test and examination the doctor said it was not a clot.

    Since i added the potassium things have not been good. My hair started to fall out so much so that i kept having to remove a strand from my mouth and yesterday I lost my appetite and have not felt like eating since. I also slept a lot but psychologically I feel bad - I even feel like I have lost the will to live. I wonder if my body is able to cope with healing/detoxing yet - I feel maybe not yet. Any thought would be welcome.

    Brenda
     
  6. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Feeling a little better today. My kinesiology test said more B12 and potassium this morning.

    The loss of appetite is a symptom I had when I first contracted Lyme 10 years ago and I am having another symptom from then. I feel that there is some inflamation around my brain and at the base of my spine.

    I know that a re-occurance of symptoms is a good sign and in fact a reaction to the B12 is definitely a good sign.

    I know that i should have read everything first but my brain does not function so well now, in late stage untreated Lyme and all I picked up was that I had not been taling my B12's properly so my thought was to correct this first.

    I hope I have not messed things up by starting this way. For now I will cautiously continue and try not to get too depressed about my receeding hairline.

    Brenda
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Fraufox,

    I have generally avoided taking methyl b12 due to bad reactions which I attributed at the time to mercury being stirred up and redistributed. I normally get headaches with it, and it is a very similar reaction to when I take Alpha Lipoic Acid which does seem to chelate mercury in my case....so I assumed this was what was happening with the methy b12. Though I appreciate that there is a lot of debate over whether methyl b12 can have this effect on mercury.

    On another thread here mercury was discussed a bit. I posted a model of what might happen when mercury in the body is exposed to methylb12 considering the moleculer weights of the mb12 molecule compared to the methyl group and the mercury atom and calculated how much Hg could be converted to monomethylmercury by each amount of mb12 at 3 different assumed efficiency rates, 100%, 10% and 1% of mb12, and then what happens. When methylb12 donates a methyl group to mercury as you say, the mercury is stirred up. At that point it can be excreted in the bile by the liver at a known rate of serum half life.

    However, as the NORMAL effect of methylb12 on those with many neurological effects of b12 deficiency is to have 52 pickup played with out symptoms. All of the possible "mercury" symptoms are also all possible neurology stirred up without mercury symptoms of methylb12 startup. I honestly don't think there is any way to tell them apart if in fact there were any actually casued by the mercury. Based on the model it isn't possible for you to take enough methylb12 all at once to cause anything like a the lowest level toxic effect from methylmercury becasue of consuming methylb12.

    Recently I started on the adenosyl b12 that you recommend, I have never taken that before and it is definitely having a small but positive effect on my mood and energy which is great!

    That is good to hear. It doesn't in any way get involved with mercury, only with powering the mitochondria for energy in the body and nervous system.

    I have a LOT of neurological/psychological symptoms which vary in their intensity eg terrible memory/cognitive problems, depression, personality changes eg severe rage/irritability, apathy, a lot of the symptoms you have listed in other posts.

    Those are primarily methylb12 deficiency symptoms. They can get stirred up when starting mb12 but they do calm down with continued usage. Some of it accurs while healing is happening.

    Then everything started to go haywire, I had an increase in neurological symptoms and felt like I was literally falling apart mentally and physically, with LOTS of metal taste and increased saliva in my mouth. Anyway luckily when I stopped taking it it passed after a few days!!

    I don't know any way for startup to happen without changes in neurology. Things will change, it is inevitable. As it starts changing the tissues that make the saliva of course that can change too. The metallic taste is common in b12 deficiency. Often people have lost so much of their sense of taste that they can't taste it. As their sense of taste returns, so does a metallic taste for a while. I had that taste on and off for years. Improvment stiops after a few days following the last dose of mb12. These are all normal startup effects.


    'brain damage' and dementia like symptoms, not being able to read or think properly, much worse than regular brain fog, and generally very worrying!

    These are all b12 deficiency symptoms of various stages of deficiency and healing. They happen much faster while healing and coming back to normal.


    I'm taking active folic acid and just stared the jarrow b right too.

    By "active folic acid" do you mean Metafolin (methylfolate)? That's what you need to be taking.

    I just wondered what your thoughts were and wonder what do you think of the excessive metal taste?

    I think that it too will pass. I hope you are taking potassium to prevent problem from rapid healing. I would also suggest selnium which can help with the mercury. Also A,D,E,C calcium. magnesium and Zinc. Got to have those important minerals. Then just keep titrating the methylb12. Until up to 10mg a day sublingual held as long as possible. Things will smooth out and will improve. However, things have been abnormal so long you no longer have your bearings. As things shift around, whch they will do, they all feel abnormal. As one thing after another actually succeeds in healing you will feel successively more and more improved. It can take weeks to months to smooth out a lot. Neurological things take longer to heal than many other things. After things steady out for a bit then comes a time to evaluate. Energy and brainfog need assessment after a few months as there are a lot of factors that affect those things and more adjustments can be made but probably no more need to be made while things are rapidly changing as long as the necessary basics for healing are present. Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    For me hair has been a real mixed bag. The male pattern baldness that had been on hold for 20 years started up full blast but other hair has grown faster and thicker. My nails got a lot thicker and tougher. Hair has come back on my formerly neuropathic slick legs after 20 years. Often hair can break off where it changes thickness and it can come back thicker and even a different color somewhat at times. You will be glad to know that methylb12 is a powerful anti-inflammatory as is the methylfolate as cells start healing well. I'm not sure what you mean about not taking the b12 right. hang in there. We all have been through the brainfog. It seems to clear in half a dozen steps. After the startup quiets down we can take a look at that and see how it is doing. Basically it's steady as she goes. Get the basics going. B-right twice a day can help stability quite a bit as can calcium and magnesium. Try to start walking as your physical body allows, but dion't overdo it.
     
  9. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Fredd, I meant that I was not keeping the B12 long enough under my tongue to absorb it - only about 5 mins. I had been taking it on and off for a year and a half.

    I am ready to order from iherb but will have to send it first to another EU country then on to me as customs hold packages with supplements here for up to 3 weeks and then you have to go to the post office where it is opened and they decide whether to allow it or not and it often depends on the mood of the officer.

    OK I will happily let my hair grow again if it comes back blonde :) I have lost most of my body hair so not bothered about that.

    I am interested in what you say about the psychological changes during the healing process. I do know that I changed after getting Lyme. I am surprised you are not writing a book????

    Brenda
     
  10. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi Fredd, yesterday took the methly12 1/4 tablet and 1 hour later another 1/4 tablet usually by 10 am I am finished. Not much reaction -- around 3 p.m. felt like a fast moving storm hit me, nervousness turned to anxiety and depression. Tried meditation and finally took a tiny flake of xanax and by 6:30 pm it all eased up. This morning I am doing it all over again and increasing the dosage of the methly12 to 1/2 tablet now and 1/2 tablet in 1 hour. Feels like the calm before the storm.

    Just wanted to mention several months ago I tried alpha-lipoic acid and was sick for 2 day. Also tried acetyl-l carnitine at a different time and same reaction - sick for 2 days. Don't know why that would happen.

    Thanks for being here.

    Lena
     
  11. Angel

    Angel

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    inflammation

    For inflammation I get good results taking Serrapeptase. I prefer a Serrapeptase IV as after 4 of them I looked as if I had lost 10 pounds. All of the puffiness of my face and body just disappeared, and the blue ankles went away also.

    I add a daily Omega 3 to that to keep inflammation in check.
     
  12. Angel

    Angel

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    thinning hair

    Is the male pattern baldness related to a hormonal imbalance of too much testosterone, and not enough Triest and Progesterone>

    For thinning hair I have been told that you need to take Protease enzymes and HCL to increase your stomach acid as it is caused by protein not being digested and absorbed properly. Apparently as we age, we produce less HCL.
     
  13. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Thanks for that advise about thining hair. I wonder if ther lack of HC is the reason why I seem to have no bile fluid flowing? (yellow stool) Thanks

    Brenda
     
  14. keenly

    keenly Senior Member

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    Is hydroxy any good?

    I can get a spray of that without any added sugar; 5000 mcg

    I currently inject cyanocobalamin; is this useless? should i switch to methylcobalamin injections?

    are there any source of dibencozide without sugar added?

    cheers
     
  15. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    Thanks for your reply and for explaining about the mercury. I'm sure that it is neurological & immune repair going on and because I know that I have overload of mercury and other heavy metals aswell as multiple chronic infections I have to be very careful. The detox from the methyl b12 kickstarts the methylation too much and I get way too much inflammation than my body can handle.

    Anyway I have backed down to 1/4 of a 1mg tab, I seem to tolerate it ok at this level. I've increased the adb12 to 2 a day now and that is definitely helping a lot more. I slept so much better than usual last night so I'm sure its all helping.

    Yes I'm taking methyltetrahydrofolate. I'm taking Tri Salts for the potassium, calcium and sodium.

    Thanks again.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lena,

    L-carnitine, and fumarate seems to be more effective than acetyl in this function, helps the mitochondria by moving the fats into the cell and mitochondria for burning by the adenosylb12 in the Krebs cycle. Methylfolate assists in some way and affects the adb12. Some people have more effect of this process starting up than others. This happens both in the muscles and the nervous system.

    Here is the thing on the startup of the nervous system. Both adb12 (with carnitine etc) and mb12 have separate effects. One start funcioning without energy. The other starts energy without funtioning. Not all parts get going at the same time so startup can be sort of ragged.

    Right now just keep the adb12 going and get the mb12 started. You might do better with 3 or 4 quarters than 2 halves tomorrow. A lot of people find the mb12 startup kind of euphoric. Leave the carnitine and stuff for a little later. You may find doing even 8 quarters in a day smoother than halves. After you get it up to a certain level of saturation, going to halves won't be a noticable difference. You might find going up to 4 halves easier than taking a whole one at first. You can look at it as filling up sort of a resevoir as you add the b12 at first. More frequent smaller doses gets there about the same as fewer larger doses but perhaps more gently. While there is a brief higher level right after the larger dose, the more frequent smaller doses maintains a higher average level. It works out either way while titrating.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Froufox,

    I think you make an error in attributing the effects to methylation. The methylb12 has only a tiny fraction "methyl" which is CH3. That is a total of only 18 out of more than 1335 total molecular weight. Compared to methylfolate or SAM-e or other methylators, it is very weak and has very little methyl to contribute. Much of the detox mb12 does is combining the cobalamin portion with the toxin and making it harmless and transporting it out of the body. Most of the effect of mb12 is to the nervous system actually functioning better and being more aware of what is happening. Mostly 95% is excreted unchanged within a few hours. The mb12 reduces inflammation pretty quickly as it restores the ability of the body to make new cells. This shows up with decreasing inflammation, often in less than 10 days. At 1/4 of a 1mg tablet you are absorbing about 15% (in 45 minutes of 250mcg, a total of perhaps 35-40 mcg, which has very little to do with methylation but a whole lot to do with functioning. Even at that pace a lot of empty sites for the mb12 will be occupied pretty soon. Glad to hear that the adb12 is helping so much. Better sleep makes a big difference in how a person feels and will supply more energy. Startup can be ragged is all. Don't let it scare you and it too shall pass and you will be feeling better. You might finds that after the 1/4 tablet you can add several more 1/8ths during the day without things changing too much which can speed up that intial "chargeup" period without making it more intense.
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Keenly,

    Hydroxyb12 works for about 2/3 of people on about 1/3 of the symtoms that a combination of methylb12 and adenosylb12 work on. The methylb12 sublinguals that are 5 star rated have no added sugar. Further as a spray only stays in contact with tissues for a very short time it doesn't absorb well. The sublinguals can reach 15% of mb12 absorbed in 45 minutes and 25% in 120 minutes. Once swallowed absorbtion is about 1%. Methylb12 injections can work very well but they have to be carefully cared for as light exposure turns them into hydroxyb12. What is your objective? Except for subacute combined degeneration and other CNS problems of that sort sublinguals probably work as well. In the range of up to 5mg injected daily sublinguals work as well. At about 7.5mg in a single injection sc, something else happens and a threshold is reached. It takes 50mg of sublinguals to do the same. As daily injections are needed with mb12 to maintain full effectiveness many find that sublinguals are less expensive, less fragile, easier and more convienient. Sublingual adenosylb12, which have no added sugar, is about the only choice as it is rarely available by injection and is considered even more fragile. Mb12 injections are FAR more effective than either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12 injections. Mb12 5 star brands sublinguals are equally effective to the injections.
     
  19. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    ad b12

    I have used cyano and hyroxy B12 injection to no avail. Also took Methyl B12 for a few weeks. Still no change. Started 3000 mg ad B12 a few days ago based on your recommendation . The dizziness and fatigue is less. My Spectracell B12 was a little above the normal range .
     
  20. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi Fredd, I started 1 full tablet of the methylb12 on Saturday and by that afternoon experienced euphoria for a period of time. Also on Sunday 1 of the mb12 but both days I put it under my tongue, I developed a sore spot under my upper lip from the mb12. This morning I have the mb12 under my upper lip. Is it as effective under the tongue? I have noticed since being on 1 mb12 that my sleep problems are worse, I require more xanax to get some sleep. This morning woke up with some anxiety, not bad but its here (especially after reading some of the other posts, I try to only concentrate on your posts). It is hard to measure improvements but looking back to a month ago today I am much improved. What is the next step for me? When should I start the Solgar Folate 800 mcg?

    Fredd, please stay with us on this forum. As you said the risk of doing nothing and watching your life go down the tubes is far too risky for me also. With all the treatments I tried in the last 8 years not one doctor, alternative, holistic or practitioner of some kind was totally honest with me, they promoted their treatment or supplements for large sums of money without any proof of anyone ever recovering. Here you are supporting any one of us with no motive but to help. I so appreciate all your help.

    Lena
     

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