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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    No, not that I'm aware of. But I had some urinary symptoms a couple of months back that started after 3 consecutive weeks of glutathione shots. I had a shot last Tuesday, don't plan on having any more at this time.

    Had a little setback. Even though the second 1/4 mb12 tablet was at 5:30pm I couldn't get to sleep until around 4am. Even with extra klonopin and some benadryl. My heart rate was staying about about 15 to 20 beats higher than it would normally. I have an easily activated nervous system, for example I can't tolerate much caffeine at all.

    I'm going to step back and start the mb12 at a much lower dose and climb slower. Going to stay with 1 B-Right a day for a few days also.
     
  2. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    Thanks for the reply. I had my thyroid done last year by urine testing. I have had Hashimoto's for 10 years but my tsh was not showing my true thyroid state, so I got the urine test which showed it was was low then and lower now as the hypo symptoms have increased. However I cannot take any meds.

    I will have to read through the thread again to understand better what you have advised.

    Brenda
     
  3. winston

    winston

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    Hi Fredd, this morning I put the adb12 Country Life under my upper lip for over 45 minutes. No real reaction except a little shaky in my legs. I left with my daughter all morning so I couldn't really monitor my reactions but I actually felt not bad - not energized but not fatigued - didn't have that poisoned feeling - mood was really good - no anxiety. When I compare this to the reaction I had taking B-right for the first time the adb12 was more subtle. Last Thursday 1 1/2 hours after taking B-right I had this wonderful urge to get off the couch and go to Target. That afternoon I felt a little manic - talking non-stop. Friday calmer & still not toxic. Saturday I felt almost normal. By Sunday the good times disappeared until today. Right now I am tired but I have been more active than usual. Does any of this make since? As always, thank you for your advice.

    Lena
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    I know the compounding pharmacy here will make methylb12 subliguals without anything in that you don't want. They can also do pure crystals in distilled water for mb12 drops without any junk, flavoring or anything else, to your specs. As they move a ggod deal of mb12 each month they don't charge you for a whole packet of crystals for a small amount of product so their prices are quite reasonable. If you are interested in getting a quote on pure mb12 items please let me know. If I can help you out with that, I'll be glad to.
     
  5. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Hi Freddd--yes sure that's a good idea. Will they do adenysol also? I hadn't thought of that.

    I'm going to start with folapro and hydroxy--sprinkle doses and see what happens. I feel that since I was active, exercising and travelling the world until lyme slymed me (although I did have other problems such as undiagnosed celiac, and of course I have mercury poisoning from a zillion fillings when I was a teen)...that I probably convert B12's okay...I don't want to detox too badly like Lisa described...I need to go slow and careful... :)
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi David,

    I found that for me, and this has been duplicated by others, is that putting up with a little discomfort for a few days allows one to push that total serum level up and complete saturation far more quickly leading to a much short period of stimulation. Mb12 isn't like caffeine or other stimulents. Mb12 isn't a stimulent. It feels like it is because it directly affects that with which we perceive. The nerves turn on to capacity. More doesn't make them turn on more. After the maximum nerve funtion is reached, more b12 saturates the blood and the tissues and the organs but isn't perceived as any more. The sooner this is saturated the sooner your body adjusts it's perception of what is normal. If you turn it down every time it starts trying to drag you out of the pit it has to cover the same distance over and pover and over. As a person can go to the start of return of symptoms in 3 days after the last dose you can play yoyo indefinitely without ever letting the body adjust it's perception. An experiment you can try with sugar or salt demonstrates how our body adjusts perceptions. Add 50% more salt to all your food for a week or two, until that tastes "normal". Then cut it back to the original level and it will taste not salty enough. Leave it there for a few days to a week or so and it will taste normal again. Don't confuse perceptual things with "real" things. Active b12s affect our perceptions. If we feel "over stimulated" and we leave it there, it will adjust and become "normal" except having more energy. You don't have to back down much at all to take that edge off. If you go all the way back down, you will have to traverse that road over and over again. Dieters are infamous for loosing the same 5 pounds 20 times instead of 100 pounds once.

    Try to allow yourself to be okay with feeling more stimulated for a few days. You will adjust much more quickly. Feeling normal is going to feel very abnormal at first. To quote an old title. "Been down so long it feels like up to me". People physiologically down a long time lose their bearings and don't know what normal feels like. The hypersensitivity is a result of the deficiency. Going from 0.1% to 1% is a 10 times increase and feels gigantic. That is what is happening right now, a small "real" increase feels gigantic because of what it is being compared to. Understanding and accepting the nature of these perceptual changes will allow you to actually adjust far more quickly. Just yesterday you were doubting anything was happening with the mb12.

    Getting your nervous system back to normal is going to involve feeling different. You can't turn it on without turning it on. Try taking all the mb12 for the day before noon, even better by 10 am. That allows the melatonin to be generated in the evening. Serum halflife of b12 that freshly enters the blood is 20-50 minutes dropping to about 4 hours at 12 hours following dose. That means that if you succeed in getting 256 mcg into your blood by 10 AM, there is likely only a few mcg left by midnight. It doesn't linger long. Only the b12 that is actually in place funtioning is felt. As mb12 isn't locked in place longterm like adb12 is, it keeps getting flushed out and needs daily renewal. Please ask some questions if you don't understand. Playing yoyo with the doses won't do what you expect. Your body will adjust more rapidly with a higher dose and not spend most of it retracing the same ground every day. I've been through this and walked some hundreds through this. Good luck.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lena,

    Adb12 does only one thing, occupy mitochondria allowing them to function. All of this sounds pretty normal of somebody starting up. Mb12 has a lot more different startup effects. It directly affects perceptions in a way adb12 doesn't. As your energy level comes up it will fluctuate, especailly at the beginning. It will cause a burst of energy and run out of a cofactor making for a lot of fluctuations. So one has 2 things to deal with, real fluctuations in energy generation and fluctuations in perceptions. Adb12 lev els off very quickly becasue the adb12 parks in the mitochondria and stays there a long time. Once all the parking spaces are filled, there is no more change and everything related to adb12 gets steady as long as other cofactors are in place. Mb12 is the main circulating form and is used in every cell that is reproducing in every part of the body. It affects literally everything. It's startup is much more ragged and it requires far more cofactors. It also drains from the body very quickly. A steadystate is reached rapidly at a given level of dose. At too low a dose, there is never enough and so the body never levels out, always playing yoyo. At a higher dose, mb12 is there at 100% of needed places as needed and everything smooths out as all sorts of processes don't start and stop and start and stop, every day. More is just excreted more quickly. As long as mb12 is there at less than 100% of needed places processes are starting and stopping continuously making for a bumpy ride. Many people do better taking their mb12 before noon so that their melatonin is generated in the evening. As your levels come up you will have more energy and can slowly build capacity. Be careful not to overdo it despite higher energy.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    B12 deficiency is associated with the damage that causes Hashimoto's. However, once that damage is done, taking b12 of either active form doesn't correct it. Taking methylb12 or adbn12 isn't known to affect thyroid in any way. It doesn't affect TSH or any of that. I have known people who assumed it did and got themselves in trouble by trying to adjust their thyroid in response to the perceived changes induced by mb12 or adb12. They were chasing phantoms. Mb12 changes sensory perceptions. Those changes are illusions, a temporary artifact of increased intensity of perception, a temporary artifact of increased neural transmission speed, a temporary artifact of normalization of certain neural transmitters. To the best of my knowledge these active b12s don't affect thyroid. I've been on thyroid supplements since I was 8 years old; origianlly extract and later Synthroid or Levothyroxin. No amount of eityher or both active b12s affected my thyroid levels at all no matter what it felt like. It's quite easy to misinterpret these perceptions. Good luck.
     
  9. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Thanks for the continued help Fred. I can put up with some discomfort, but not like I had last night. I have a long history with sleeping problems already.

    Since the quarter tablet didn't bother me the day before, perhaps the half (2 quarters) yesterday was too much? Or as you said, maybe it would have been better all at once early in the day. Yesterday was also the first day for 2 tablets of B-Right. Maybe just too much at the same time. Urinary frequency was back to normal today also, it was just increased for yesterday.
     
  10. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Thanks Fredd

    Last night I seemed to sleep a bit better after holding the B12 for an hour. Today I did the same one half a 5000 tablet first thing. No jitters and later this morning I was really stinky with underarm sweating. This is always a good sign for me. I am not sure but I might have less brain fog - not sure yet. I have 36 tablets left. It will take some time for me to get an order through from iherb. I have two B complex bottles I have been taking One is from Lane but it is in Greek so I don't know what sort of B12 and the other is Cyan. I have also been taking brewers yeast.

    Should I continue with 2500 from Jarrow and leave out the other B's till I can get my order?

    I had planned to do natural healing :) I will give this a try though to see how it goes.
     
  11. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi David, I am glad you are one step ahead of me. Sleeping for me is a nightmare. Years past I used Lorazapam but when I was in remission i got off of it. Today I use Xanax, don't know if it is any better but 1/2 mg I can sleep for 3 to 4 hours. Right now I can fall asleep for 2 hours wake up take Xanax and maybe sleep 3 more hours. That is it. I wanted to know do you take both the sublingual adb12 and the mb12 at the same time - both under your upper lip at the same time or do you take one finish it and then take the other? I plan to start the mb12 next week Wednesday, I can't wait. ha ha
    You were right about the adb12 I do feel a little better. Thanks!

    Lena
     
  12. winston

    winston

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    Hi Fredd, all I can say is you are brilliant and so generous with your time in helping us. I am grateful.

    Lena
     
  13. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Lena, I take them separately. I don't think I could comfortably hold both of them at the same time. I haven't even tried a whole mb12, that might be too large by itself for me.

    David
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    I don't think that the small amount of cyanob12 in a b-complex will make much difference at all in comparison to the much larger amounts of active b12. I had a b-complex that had cyanob12 for the first year or more of mb12, the time in which I had the most healing. Minute differences that show up in research don't always translate to a noticable real world difference, or sometimes does bu only in the most extreme cases, such as somebody taking 5mg of cyanob12 a day and 100mcg of mb12 instead of the other way around. If you like, let's talk over your order before you make one so that you get the right things if it is going to take a while for it to get to you.

    I want to mention, I am running much warmer now than I used to. I sweat when before I might have been comfy. At night I'm nude and use just a sheet partially covering me instead of a blanket and a quilt. My feet still get cold but not the rest of me.

    It's okay to take both mb12 and adb12 at the same time. The diffusion gradiant seems additive. That means I can take a few adb12 instead of 16 and have it ride along with my mb12 injection into the csf/cns.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    I asked about adenosylb12 last year. They said it would be more expensive, at least in part because they have doubts about being able to sell an entire batch. If they had an assured markey for the entire purchase of crystal adenosylb12 made into product, the price might be lower than he thought. Another posibility, if you can get a prescription, is that a 1mg injection is about 60 cents which is actually less costly than a custom sublingual but not much different than drops would be. The problem with drops is the low time in contact with tissue problem. You need something to hold it there. Maybe injected into a small apple slice and putiing that under the tongue or something. I donm't know an answer. I'm just speculating out loud on this. I'm going up there tomorrow and if you can answer today that would be good so I can have ideas to discuss tomorrow.

    I would like to say that you can order 10 gram minimiums of crystal your self from certain sources. I have considered that too.

    A comment I would like to make about "point of view". How we talk about things is definitely influenced by point of view and a theoretical basis on which we base our thinking. This applies to everybody. So Person X has a point of view on one basis and person Y on a different basis. Persons X and Y see a set of symptoms following a sequence of supplements. They both see the same things. Have you read the Sufi story of the 4 blind men and the elephant" or "The Dermis Probe" in a more modern version? The 4 blind men are all describing one small piece of the elepant and yet their descriptions appear entirely at odds when one doesn't know that each one is describing only the leg, trunk, side or tail. So Person X sees a sequence and results and calls it "Detox reaction" and Person "Y" calls it "Intensified deficiency symptoms". These sound contradictory and yet are not necessarily mutually exculsive. They may just be a way of describing somethinmg based on a different aspect of it or a different understanding based on differnt theoretical basis. So calling it a "detox reaction expressed as intensification of symptoms normally associated with xyz deficiency" makes the combination.

    The question might then come down to the predictions mad by applying either part or all of the description. In my case of when I took the glutathione producing precursors I rapidly had a set of reactive symptoms. In reading up on glutathione and that it encourages "detox" one might certainly be encouraged to think of my set of symptoms as a "detox" reaction. The symptoms appear to fit in the set of symptoms one finds when searching for such; * low Energy * achy muscles * light headedness * headaches * flu like symptoms* coated tongue * runny nose or allergy symptoms * stomach aches * uneasy digestive tract * Fevers * feeling like throwing up * and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed. * http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html

    These also fit into the b12 and folate deficiency symptoms list. Becasue of my viewpoint, I called them deficiency symptoms. I discontinued glutathione producing precurors and the symptomns stayed. If they are indeed induced deficiency symptoms then that would predict that if the deficiencies they induce were to treated with those items that the symptoms would go away, pretty promptly as has been my experierience.

    I took more methylb12 and some went away, within days. I took more potassium and some were reduced or went away within hours to days. I took more calcium and some reduced or went away within hours to days. I took more methylfolate and all that remained went away starting in hours within 3 days after hanging on for 6 months after discontinuing glutathione precursors. These included very specifically the runny nose and allergy type symptoms, low energy, headaches and achy muscles and some other old symptoms like angular cheilitis, brainfog and depressed mood.

    In identifying 4 items that corrected symptoms associated with their deficiencies, almost all of the symptoms associated with the glutathione precursors quicklly were relieved as would be expected with correcting induced deficiencies. I am quite confident that if I had though to try the increased methylfolate doses earlier I could have saved myself of 6 months of unmpleasantness. But I though that 800mcg of methytlfolate ought to be plenty as it had been the previous 2 years. Right now I am taking 2400mg twice a day of methylfolate. There is no b12 visible in my urine at all and hasn't been for 4 days now except a very slight amount once.

    So, whatever else glutathione and precursors do, they appear to detox the body of methylb12, potassium, calcium and methylfolate.

    Both views can exist at thje same time and lead to a treatment that works if understood and applied in that way. My pharmacist gave the hint about perhaps it was causiong the faster excretion of one or more items.
     
  16. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    Thanks again for your help.

    It will take a while for me to get an order as supplement imports from US are not allowed in my country.

    Last night I was awoken by a severe pain in right calf. It did ease off and is still there but not too painful. That can't be connected by the B12 can it?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    Where are you located?
     
  18. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Fred, I assumed the neon yellow urine was here to stay as long as I'm taking B12. Should it not be?

    I'm going to have a stool test done which requires me to stop all supplements for several days. So I'll be sort of starting over unfortunately.

    David
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    http://www.iherb.com/info/shipping/ShipOtherCount

    iherb ships to Germany. It costs a flat $4 for international airmail for orders up to $80 and takes 1-3 weeks for delivery. There are certain restrictions on hormone type products, the order must cost less than $80 and weigh less than 3 pounds. So you might have to break up the order into several pieces. They say check with customs for exact restrictions but that most vitamins and minerals can be shiped with no problem. So buy the bulky heavy stuff locally and just buy the hard to get items to be shipped this way.
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi David,

    Neon yellow is not a b12 color, but is the color of some other b-vitamins. B12 in high quantity and all alone is slightly magenta. With other b-vits it tens to make for a darker yellow to almost orange or pinkish color depending upon quantity. A 25mg single injection gets a lot of that color into the urine, a 7.5mg injection a just noticable amount. Normal sublingual amounts are not noticable at all.

    Stopping for a few days doesn't mean starting all over fortunately. The ad b12 that is in place in the mitochondria will all still be in place. The mb12 that has gone into the tissues will still be there. Only the current serum levels will be down. However, you couldn't possibly reach such a highly depleted state without going months or more without. A person in a state of saturated equilibrium with b12 who can't feel any size dose in any way, will regain the ability to feel a dose, but only slightly, after 3 days. Those of us who require our bodies to be in a state of saturated equilibrium for health will start to have a slight loss of energy and other deficiency symptoms barely begin after 3 days without. So don't worry, it's not a startover and a single dose will put it back.

    What kind of test requires you to stop all supplements? One time, and one time only I had to make sure I wasn't taking 1 specific thing and it wasn't b12 that was restricted.
     

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