B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sunday]

By the way, Swanson's
has Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion for $4.37, as opposed to iherb's $6.18 for the same 30-tablet bottle. Swanson's also carries the Jarrow B12s for significantly less.

However, Swanson's doesn't have all the necessary ingredients for this protocol, their shipping is fast but not the lightning speed of iherb, and they charge a low flat fee for shipping ($4.99, no matter what size your order is).

If you're buying supplements in bulk, I think it can make sense and save money to shop in more than one place. If you're only buying a few things , the extra shipping costs will knock out any savings. But I think most of us on this protocol are kind of bulk buyers...

 

[Freddd]

By the way, Swanson's
has Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion for $4.37, as opposed to iherb's $6.18 for the same 30-tablet bottle. Swanson's also carries the Jarrow B12s for significantly less.

However, Swanson's doesn't have all the necessary ingredients for this protocol, their shipping is fast but not the lightning speed of iherb, and they charge a low flat fee for shipping ($4.99, no matter what size your order is).

If you're buying supplements in bulk, I think it can make sense and save money to shop in more than one place. If you're only buying a few things , the extra shipping costs will knock out any savings. But I think most of us on this protocol are kind of bulk buyers...

Hi Sunday,

Pricing can be complicated. I do buy in bulk. I frequently buy things 4 or 12 at a time and take the extra discounts for that. I also typically buy more than $480 worth at a time and take the additional bulk buying discounts at the maximum rate. As I buy for myself, my kids and their spouses and a couple of friends, it is quite an order. I put all the things I buy into a spreadsheet and price them up. My typical order takes more than an hour to get entered and correct, especially adding new things where I compare multiple brands and sources for those new items. First I go down into my storeroom where I have everything laid out like a store and see what I have enough of to last till my next order, and what I am short of. Then I go online and check out prices and availability, sales, special deals and such. Except for a few special items, I try all sorts of different brands so I'm always on the lookout to cut my costs. Thankyou for telling me about another company. I believe in competition.

 

[Sunday]

Thanks for revealing your shopping techniques. I'll have to look into the discounts available doing that. Btw, I also found Swanson's brand to be the cheapest source of both krill oil (they use the oil from a reputable company which does sustainable harvesting and seems really interested in quailty. Starts with A, but I can't remember it. I did an in-depth krill oil research one night and went to many many sites, but while some people don't like its fishy taste as compared to Neptune krill oil, others believe this company is producing a better product)

and ubiquinol (they use the QH type everyone uses, so there's really no difference in quality from one brand to another). Their fish oil, if you'd rather use that than krill oil, looks like a very good deal, although I don't know what the pollution/mercury level is, they don't mention it. They only say the oil is molecularly distilled, whatever that means.

I put a break in that sentence because that was a looong parenthetical statement. Anyway I have found that the quality of the Swanson's brand is generally pretty good. They regularly have sales, usually 2 for 1, on a few items at a time. They also carry a ton of other brands, but not necessarily every item in each brand's line. And they don't stock Country Life adb12, as well as some other vital things. I do agree that it pays to shop around and look for deals. I'm not as scientific about it as you but maybe it would be a good idea to head that direction.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks for revealing your shopping techniques. I'll have to look into the discounts available doing that. Btw, I also found Swanson's brand to be the cheapest source of both krill oil (they use the oil from a reputable company which does sustainable harvesting and seems really interested in quailty. Starts with A, but I can't remember it. I did an in-depth krill oil research one night and went to many many sites, but while some people don't like its fishy taste as compared to Neptune krill oil, others believe this company is producing a better product)

and ubiquinol (they use the QH type everyone uses, so there's really no difference in quality from one brand to another). Their fish oil, if you'd rather use that than krill oil, looks like a very good deal, although I don't know what the pollution/mercury level is, they don't mention it. They only say the oil is molecularly distilled, whatever that means.

I put a break in that sentence because that was a looong parenthetical statement. Anyway I have found that the quality of the Swanson's brand is generally pretty good. They regularly have sales, usually 2 for 1, on a few items at a time. They also carry a ton of other brands, but not necessarily every item in each brand's line. And they don't stock Country Life adb12, as well as some other vital things. I do agree that it pays to shop around and look for deals. I'm not as scientific about it as you but maybe it would be a good idea to head that direction.

HI Sunday,

One aspect I didn't mention is that in comparing different brands of different quantities of different sizes etc I calculate cost/mg and cost/dose. Sometimes it is less expensive to buy the jar of 1000 of a smaller size than 200 of a larger size. I apply this to my prescriptions too. So there is one med I buy in which my dose is 80mg/day in a single dose. 80mg bought as a single tablet costs 4x the price of 2x40mg tablet. Further buying a 6 month supply all at once costs twice as much as a 1 month supply so it cost 1/3 the price per dose of buying it a month at a time. Then at another store with the $4 generics, 3 months for $10 sounds like a good deal and it is pretty good, yet at the other store I get 6 months for $12. Vitamins can be in exactly the same type of comparison. With the vitamins there is the added complication of an overall volume discount at some dealers so it is worth paying a $1 more per bottle for 4 bottles to qualify me for a $10 increment on discount. In my programming past I wrote an inventory program for an auto accesseries store and a window wholesaler/manufacturer that included figuring out how to apply the terms offered from the various wholesalers to get the lowest net on their orders after applying all possible discounts including COD and prepay as compared to cost of money for the net 30 terms etc and just in time ordering versus discounts for volume ordering, truckloads versus split truckloads etc. so I learned to play both ends of that.

Now just suppose that for a modest price there were a program you could buy, or use via the internet for a few dollars a year that would track all the vitamins you might order from all the different sources and all you had to do was put in the prices when they changed that would help optimize what brands, quantities sizes etc where and how you ordered your vitamins and whether split orders or combined orders saved you more would it be worth it to you? I'm just curious.

 

[susan]

Fredd,
I have not been on your board for a while and wonder where to go from here. Been doing the Methylation thru a Dr. here in OZ.......but I did something very stupid following another thread. I took Tagemet for 14 days thinking it might stop my nausea and burping I have had for 4 yrs.

After 14 days the nausea and burping was uncontrollable and I became almost dead from Toxic poisoning.. My Doc said so and said that drug went down the detox Phase 1 pathway CPY 450.....same as supplements.

Stopped methylation for a few days and supps , tried again with no luck, Waited a week, started again with supplements and have lasted 5 days with no luck...terrible nausea and loose stools and sooo sleepy.. I had been methylating for 3 mths and doing a gut protocol as well and improving. Do you know how this detox Phase 1 relates to methylataion.? Will corrected methylation improve this. How can I improve it when supps are sooo hard to take. ?

 

[Sunday]

I know Freddd or Rich could answer this much more thoroughly and accurately, but I will say that Freddd has noticed that stopping and starting methylation protocol just means you go through the awful symptoms over and over and never get any further forward. Whether this is detox or startup or some other thing, it feels like crap. Most of us have to go through it to get to the other side. My first couple of weeks on methylation were fine, then I hit the hell spot and stayed there for 2 months. I don't have a miraculous story to tell, but gradually many of my symptoms have been subsiding, and I keep adding supplements and playing with dosages to get more functional.

Have you tried lowering your dosages and then bumping them up very slowly? Adding one supplement at a time? Do you have a foundation of the basic vitamins and minerals that support methylation? All these things can be key, and I'm sure Freddd or Rich could add many more.

 

[susan]

Thanks Sunday for your insight. Yes i was worried about the stopping and starting of the methylation for the reasons you stated. My Doc has put everything in one capsule...minerals included. I think I might wait a week to get the liver a bit more peaceful then I will open the capsule and just take maybe 1/5 capsule. It is funny sometimes I have had to do this in the past and my body gradually accepts it. However the Tagemet drug took away any goodwill the liver had left. Today I am thinking better so rather than think ' Oh God now I am stuffed up forever, I am thinking this too will pass"

 

[Freddd]

Fredd,
I have not been on your board for a while and wonder where to go from here. Been doing the Methylation thru a Dr. here in OZ.......but I did something very stupid following another thread. I took Tagemet for 14 days thinking it might stop my nausea and burping I have had for 4 yrs.

After 14 days the nausea and burping was uncontrollable and I became almost dead from Toxic poisoning.. My Doc said so and said that drug went down the detox Phase 1 pathway CPY 450.....same as supplements.

Stopped methylation for a few days and supps , tried again with no luck, Waited a week, started again with supplements and have lasted 5 days with no luck...terrible nausea and loose stools and sooo sleepy.. I had been methylating for 3 mths and doing a gut protocol as well and improving. Do you know how this detox Phase 1 relates to methylataion.? Will corrected methylation improve this. How can I improve it when supps are sooo hard to take. ?

Hi Susan,

I'm not at all sure exactly what you mean here. I've gone back and looked at all your posts, not read them all mind you, just glanced at them and tried to get some ideas. I'm going to ask something of you that is a lot of work. I'm willing to put in that effort on my end if you will on your end.

What I want you to do is the same thing that I would ask of somebody if they came to me for consulting to solve a problem. There is no guarantee that I can solve this problem. It's all a roll of the dice from where I sit at this moment. First I need to know what the problem is. I would like you to start from the beginning. Tell me your problem. Assume I don't know anything, especiallly no jargon. I don't know "detox" anything, I don't know "gut" anything. I don't know anything. So break each thing out into . symptoms. Don't tell me interpretations or understandings or guesses. Tell me ALL your symptoms. When something is changed detail the symptoms that change and how. Especially tell me all your symptoms that are on the list at the beginning of this thread and all the ones you have that are NOT on that list. Tell me how things have changed over time as you have added or subtracted or changed various supplements or combinations of supplements, with or without food.

Things have gotten too tangled up and confused for me to keep things straight. At this point I feel like anything I might say would be wrong because I don't understand. So if you play along with this, I will too and take a fresh look at your whole situation and see what I can make of it. Good luck.
Freddd

 

[Cloud]

Had my first ever IM of Hydroxycobalamin yesterday WOW!! I was on other forms of B12 (IM and sublingual) for long periods of time and....Nothing. But the Hydroxy form is Great! My GP gave it to me in her office, and said she will write a script if I like it. It's very obvious this is something I need and am indeed going to purchase some. My insurance doesn't pay for it.....anyone have a suggestion for a high quality and inexpensive pharmacy I can order from here in the USA? She also gave me FolaPro, which is in line with Richs simplified protocol. The FolaPro is 800mcg and I'm concerned if I will be getting too much because my vitamin supplement has 600mcg Folic Acid. Suggestions?

 

[Freddd]

Had my first ever IM of Hydroxycobalamin yesterday WOW!! I was on other forms of B12 (IM and sublingual) for long periods of time and....Nothing. But the Hydroxy form is Great! My GP gave it to me in her office, and said she will write a script if I like it. It's very obvious this is something I need and am indeed going to purchase some. My insurance doesn't pay for it.....anyone have a suggestion for a high quality and inexpensive pharmacy I can order from here in the USA? She also gave me FolaPro, which is in line with Richs simplified protocol. The FolaPro is 800mcg and I'm concerned if I will be getting too much because my vitamin supplement has 600mcg Folic Acid. Suggestions?

Hi Cloud,

If you go look back at the bginning of this thread some basics are laid out. SOmething to consider is that if you go with subingual tablets, they can be anywhere from as effective as injections to completely ineffective. Differenmt brands are different. The Enzymatic Therapy and Jarrow sublingual methylb12 tablets are much more effective than any other brands when allowed to linger 45-120 minutres under your lip and are rated 5 stars by a group of hypersensitive testers. The Country Life Dibencozide, (adenosylb12) the other active form of b12 aqlong with methylb12., also is 5 stars. Both of these are generally far more effective than hydroxycobalamin, sublinguals or injections. Folapro is a brand of active folate containing Metafolin, which is a whole different thing than folic acid. It is tremendously more effective gfoe many people than folic acid. Solgar is another brand of Metafolin (all Metafolin made by or licensed by Merck) that is less than $13/100 800mcg. As these things can be expensive saving a few bucks can help. The quiality and product is identical to Folapro.


I have 5 years experience with injection methylb12, 7 years of healing in all, and everything but my subacute combined degeneration damage is fully healed and that is slowly healing, and have learned how to optimize the results. I have also learned that unless injections are done daily, a good sublingual is superior in actual healing performance to intermittant injections. Further I have learned that for most people the active forms of methylb12 and adenosylb12 produce far more rapid, complete and predictable healing responses than the inactive hydroxycobalamin that has to be converted in the body to the two active forms. This is done as a few 10s of mcgs per injection or sublingual of hycbl as opposed to 1000mcg of methylb12 making it into serum with a 5000mcg sublingual. Studies have shown that there is a dose proportionate healing response to methylb12 but not to hycbl becasue the methylb12 in serum can bypass the very limited capacity of the body to distribute the few mcgs of converted b12 from hycbl.

As Injections are very expensive comparatively and sublinguals are cheap, the 5000mcg Jarrow sublingual methylb12 which gives the equivalent of a 1000mcg methylb12 injection in every tablet costs less than 30 cents a piece. I performned a series of tests that calibrated sublingual tablets and time under lip or tongue to injected b12 and found that 45-120 minutes corresponded to 15-25% absorbtion.

For best effectiveness there are other vitamins and monerals that need to go along with the Metafolin and b12s.

 

[Freddd]

I've seen these various methylation diagrams and many similar variations of them, some assuming starting with inactive b12s and some assuming starting with active b12s and heard many apparantly mutually contradictory variations on explaining it. It somehow always comes down to a theory or hypothesis as to why hycbl ought to be superior in this one specific situation, certain genetic differences. Richvank is a proponent of this hypotheisis and his "simplified methylation protocol" is a way of dealing with it. He has a substantial following and I have reposted some of his things with his permission because I think that what he has to say is very important even though I don't agree with a small part of it regarding hycbl. There are also a number of specific genetic reasons why active b12s, either or both of them may be required to get good results that are recognized and possibly addtional ones that are not recognized going in many possible directions. Further, in BOTH protocols methylfolate - Metafolin, is strongly preferred over folic acid because of genetic variations in how well people convert folic acid to active forms of folate. In both protocols, additional cofactors are needed in order to produce best results. The active b12 protocols with cofactors will work for everybody lacking b12 without assuming everything in their body is working correctly. The Simplified Hycbl protocol will not work for everybody. It was designed for a more limited group. Even some of those for whom it was desined, about 1/3, it will not work for. The Active b12 protocol can cause much more powerful and more frequent startup responses. However, as it is these items that flair up that are frequently those heal the fastest and soonest, I didn't complain. The Simplified Hycbl protocol does nothing for and pays no attention to the depressed cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin level frequently found in FMS/CFS and Alzheimer's. The Active B12 protocol pays attention to that, provides a means to pragmatically test for that and a way to treat that with demonstrable results. The Active B12 protocol is to be considered experimental, especially as regards CNS/CSF effects as there are so few people testing that. So far early results are good. The Active b12 Protocol is the collective effort of a lot of sick and desparate people. The challange for me was to find something that worked or die. This worked and worked very well. The Simplicifed Hycbl protocol couldn't have worked for me or any of my family or anybody like me so I would most likely have died if depending upon it. At the very least I would have been in a wheelchair wearing diapers by this point, unable to read or do much else.


So let's examine what "superior" means.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/superior
[edit] Adjective
superior (comparative more superior, superlative most superior)
Positive
superior
Comparative
more superior
Superlative
most superior

1. Higher in quality.
Rebecca had always thought shorts were far superior to pants, as they didn't constantly make her legs itch.
2. Higher in rank.
3. Located above.
4. Being greater or better than average; extraordinary.
So in looking at this usage of hycbl as compared to mb12 in this one specific genetic minority of time situation, one might expect that it would produce superior results of some kind, whatever that might mean.

SITUATION A - Active B12 protocol
So in looking at results of people in general trying the active b12 protocol, some of them undoubtedly having this specific gemnetic situation in isolation, some in combination with many other specific gemetic situtations and some not including it at all, and no way of knowing which is which without testing, what do we see? We have here many people taking the active b12 protocol for some months to several years.

SITUATION B - Simplified methylation Hycbl Protocol
It just so happens we have another trial group with the same situation generally of a few known and many unknown personal sitiuations with some persons having this genetic situation in isolation, in combination with other genetic situations that might affect it and those not having it at all but having maybe other genetic situations, most of them unknown. We also have this other grouping at another location that has largely been taking the "simplified methylation protocol" based on hycbl and cofctors based on the work of Richvank and others for some several months to several years. We actually have an outstanding A-B comparison situation.

And I do invite anybody else to write up an A-B comparison. We can then reconcile or combine or whatever to get a more complete picture, because truthfully, I'm giving it a very quick once over and undoubtedly missing all sorts of things and maybe even misinterpreting things. One thing to be aware of is the the "Simplified" protocol is just that, it is the simple 5 item protocol that doesn't include everything, so in speaking of items not included in the simplified protocol, remember that the active b12 has it's own "absolute minimums" simplified protocol too. Rich also has the complete far more complicated protocol which is suoerior to the simplified protocol. It treally makes little difference which one is used in this situation for the basis of this comparison because it isn't the complicated parts I am really comparing.

So what do I see?

AT STARTUP

B - Simplified inactive hycbl

Some people have startup responses to the various items, espcially to the methylfolate. Intital startup responses don't deem to last very long but in some cases they appear to last indefinitely.

A - Active b12

Most people have some slight to very intense startup responses, especially to mb12 and adb12 and to a lesser extent methylfolate, B-Right, and later when more complicated things are added SAM-e, L-carnitine fumarate and other things.

FOUR MONTHS LATER

B - Simplified inactive hycbl

Some people continue along feeling about the same. Some feel a bit better. A few feel a whole lot better. Some have to reduce to fragments of pills becasue of the severity of "detox" (self reported definition) reactions they are feeling. These intense "detox" reactions may go on and intensify for apparartantly years.

A - Active b12

Many people are pretty much done with the intial startup responses and many report that they "have turned a corner". Many symptoms are majorly decreased, some have disappeared entirely or nearly so. The shifting all around of startup has settled down to things progressively changing. Mood has improved. Energy has generally improved but it is still a roller coaster ride with ups and downs.

ONE YEAR LATER

B - Simplified inactive Hycbl

Many are still struggling with "detox" reactions. Most are not anywhere near normal or restored to a normal life or even with normal life in sight. Most still have many if not most of the symptoms of a year before. Some of those symptoms are far worse. If these persons then switch to the active b12 protocol, A, the startup responses may be much more severe than they would have been if A had been tried in the first place. There is very little additional clarity as to what is going on than a year before. A very small percentage, 1 or 2 or 3 people are essentially recovered or well on the way.

A - Active B12

After a year on the active b12 protocol, many have returned to work or normal life. Many or most of the related symptoms are gone or tremendously diminished as reported by many. Virtually nobody has anything at all related to "startup" going on unless they have added something causing additional startup recently. Nobody has intensifying "detox" reactions going on. Comorbid situations have become more clear and other treatment is being sought for the uncovered comorbid situations. Things that have not improved can be focused on and homed in on.

What I see is that the active b12 protocol is superior in every way at every time period to the simplified methylation protocol with hycbl.

Why a year of hycbl would be the cause of so much intensified startup responses to active b12s is something I don't know. I was surprised when I first saw it and I still wonder why taking hycbl and the cofactors make startup so much more intense when the active b12s are actually tried. All I can figure is that it actually makes some of the b12 deficiency symptoms worse.

I have yet to see any significant number of people who have equal or superior results with hycbl as compared to mb12 and adbq12. Maybe they will come forward so we can see what is going on.

Further, I see no cautions at all in the simplified methylation protocol about taking potassium prophylactically to prevent hypokalemia. If the simplified methylation protocol actually caused rapid onset healing then people would be having hypokalemia episodes as they have reported with the active b12 protocol and it would be necessary to have prophylactic potassium.

 

[richvank]

Had my first ever IM of Hydroxycobalamin yesterday WOW!! I was on other forms of B12 (IM and sublingual) for long periods of time and....Nothing. But the Hydroxy form is Great! My GP gave it to me in her office, and said she will write a script if I like it. It's very obvious this is something I need and am indeed going to purchase some. My insurance doesn't pay for it.....anyone have a suggestion for a high quality and inexpensive pharmacy I can order from here in the USA? She also gave me FolaPro, which is in line with Richs simplified protocol. The FolaPro is 800mcg and I'm concerned if I will be getting too much because my vitamin supplement has 600mcg Folic Acid. Suggestions?

Hi, Cloud.

I'm happy to hear that you had such a salutary response to hydroxocobalamin. As you know, freddd is fond of characterizing it as "inactive," because it is not one of the two coenzyme forms of B12, but many PWCs do find it to be very "active," in the sense that it is able to get their methylation cycle running normally again. In normal absorption, transport and processing of the various forms of vitamin B12, no distinction is made between the various forms. The different ligands (methyl, adenosyl, cyano) are all stripped off during normal processing in the cells, and the cells then make as much of the two coenzyme forms that they need. One advantage of using hydroxocobalamin, even if a large dosage is used, is that the cells still maintain control over the production of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, and thus will not be overwhelmed by excessive amounts of these coenzyme forms. I think this is important, because the methylation cycle can be overdriven, and that will hinder the normalization of the balance of the sulfur metabolism, including glutathione synthesis, in my opinion, based on the evidence I've seen from lab testing so far.

So if hydroxocobalamin is working for you, I would encourage you to stick with it.

Taking the FolaPro at a different time from when the vitamin supplement containing folic acid is taken will avoid competition between them for absorption. FolaPro is more effective for lifting the partial methylation cycle block, because it is exactly the form of folate needed by the methionine synthase enzyme, which is partially blocked in CFS. Folic acid has to undergo four sequential reactions to be converted to this form, and some people have polymorphisms in the enzymes responsible for these reactions, which can slow them down.

I hope things continue to improve for you.

Rich

 

[richvank]

To freddd regarding the A to B comparison

Hi, freddd.

It really would be good to be able to compare the various protocols on the same basis to see which works the best in CFS. However, I think that in order to do this, we need to make sure that we are dealing with cohorts that are representative of the CFS population.

I understand that there has been considerable success with your protocol, but I continue to wonder how many of the people who have had this success would meet the Fukuda et al. or the Canadian case definitions for CFS. I note that a great deal of the experience with your protocol has been had by people on the B12 deficiency thread of the wrongdiagnosis forum.

I want to reiterate that I do not believe that B12 deficiency is synonymous with CFS. There are many subgroups of B12 deficient people, and I can understand how your protocol would be almost universal for them, because it bypasses the normal absorption, transport and processing of B12, so that whatever problems people might have in those areas, your protocol would leapfrog over them. I think that's wonderful, and I'm glad that your protocol has been able to help these people.

However, as you know, the focus here is CFS, and I think it is necessary to make sure we are talking about people with CFS when we make comparisons of the outcomes of different protocols for the treatment of CFS. So I'm sorry, but I just can't accept your conclusions unless you can show that your cohort actually represents people who have CFS. You may be correct in your conclusions, and I would like to know if you are, but I don't think your argument satisfies the requirements that would make it valid.

One other thing: You've suggested that treatment with the protocol that uses hydroxocobalamin does not help with the neurological or brain-related issues in CFS. However, in our clinical study of people who did meet the Fukuda criteria for CFS, we found that they reported a significant increase in "mental clarity," which I take to mean that this protocol did help their brain function.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[JPV]

Ok, sorry for bringing up a gross subject, but since I've been trying this B12 program my sweat has been smelling somewhat different. I would describe it as kind of a toxic smell.

Could this be from detox pathways opening up?

 

[richvank]

Ok, sorry for bringing up a gross subject, but since I've been trying this B12 program my sweat has been smelling somewhat different. I would describe it as kind of a toxic smell.

Could this be from detox pathways opening up?

Hi, JPV.

Yes, I think that is the explanation. Others have reported this, also. As you are probably aware, the body's detox system depends to a large degree on metabolites that are produced in the sulfur metabolism, including cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate. The methylation cycle lies at the beginning of the sulfur metabolism. Getting the methylation cycle running better starts to restore the rest of the sulfur metabolism, and the detox system then begins to go to work on the backlog of stored toxins that has built up during the time the detox system has been dysfunctional. It mobilizes the toxins into the bloodstream, and from there they are excreted in sweat, urine and stools, primarily. I think this is a good sign, though as you say, kind of gross. But that stuff has to come out. Some people use saunas to increase the loss of toxins via sweating. It's important to replace the water and essential minerals that are also excreted, if this approach is used.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Cloud]

Hi Fredd & Rich.....thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback. I do appreciate you guys freely sharing of your knowledge. I intend to stick with IM Hydroxycobalamin because I have never had a response (good or bad) to other forms of B12. I also had no response to the Jarrow SL Methylcobolamin 5000 even held SL for a 1/2 hour minimum....I tried it for several months. Jarrow has always been my favorite brand, but the B12 did absolutely nothing for me. Glad to know about the Folate competing....I kinda thought the 2 together may not be a great idea.

 

[JPV]

Hi, JPV.

Yes, I think that is the explanation. Others have reported this, also. As you are probably aware, the body's detox system depends to a large degree on metabolites that are produced in the sulfur metabolism, including cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate. The methylation cycle lies at the beginning of the sulfur metabolism. Getting the methylation cycle running better starts to restore the rest of the sulfur metabolism, and the detox system then begins to go to work on the backlog of stored toxins that has built up during the time the detox system has been dysfunctional. It mobilizes the toxins into the bloodstream, and from there they are excreted in sweat, urine and stools, primarily. I think this is a good sign, though as you say, kind of gross. But that stuff has to come out. Some people use saunas to increase the loss of toxins via sweating. It's important to replace the water and essential minerals that are also excreted, if this approach is used.

Best regards,

Rich

As usual, thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful reply.

 

[Big]

I took various forms of sublinguals for many months, using both "active forms" and did all sorts of things like keeping them in my mouth for nearly an hour as they slowly dissolved and taking many grams of them per day using all the "right" brands...never felt any different. Hydro injections have made a world of difference and my blood counts finally improved once I switched to them...if it works, stick with it I say.

 

[Cloud]

Yep, if it works, don't fix it, lol. But I am curious if I might get a good response with the SL Hydroxycobalamin (like the Perque B12). I have done many vials of IM Cyanocobalamin, and many different brands of SL Methylcobalamin all with no response at all...but the hydroxy form is new to me and since I responded so well to the IM, maybe the SL will be good too....it would certainly be less expensive.

I'm sure this has been discussed already somewhere (and the chemistry is over my head).....If Hydroxy and Methylcobalamin have different functions in the body, is supplementing only one form sufficient? Once in the body, does the Hydroxy B12 change structure to Methyl B12 to meet the methylation needs?

 

[richvank]

Yep, if it works, don't fix it, lol. But I am curious if I might get a good response with the SL Hydroxycobalamin (like the Perque B12). I have done many vials of IM Cyanocobalamin, and many different brands of SL Methylcobalamin all with no response at all...but the hydroxy form is new to me and since I responded so well to the IM, maybe the SL will be good too....it would certainly be less expensive.

I'm sure this has been discussed already somewhere (and the chemistry is over my head).....If Hydroxy and Methylcobalamin have different functions in the body, is supplementing only one form sufficient? Once in the body, does the Hydroxy B12 change structure to Methyl B12 to meet the methylation needs?

Hi, Cloud.

Yes, normally the cells are able to convert hydroxocobalamin into the two coenzyme forms of B12. There are some genetic mutations that some people have that interfere with this conversion process. Freddd is one of the people who have such a mutation. He believes that these mutations are fairly common. According to the literature, the total number of people who have been identified as having them, worldwide, is a few hundred. Of course, there are likely many, especially in the underdeveloped countries, who have not been identified. Nevertheless, I think the consensus among geneticists is that these are rare mutations. If you are experiencing clear benefit from hydroxocobalamin, I think this is additional evidence that it is unlikely that you have one of these mutations.

Best regards,

Rich